nicsoew 0 #1 November 5, 2017 I am using Vortex 2 for a short time, 10 jumps, before it I used Javelin and parachute de france accuracy container and never had a problem. Now, in 10 jumps 3 line twists - cause - unstowed left brake. My last pack job was done very carefully triple checking the brakes by me and our jump master plus third skydiver. Brakes were stowed correctly. On opening left brake unstowed again causing line twist and cutaway: https://youtu.be/VD4rMlLPyJc I think there is a problem with risers. Brakes are unstowing easily, there is no velcro on these risers, just needle to keep the brake in place but not from going down - unstowing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 203 #2 November 5, 2017 nicsoewI am using Vortex 2 for a short time, 10 jumps, before it I used Javelin and parachute de france accuracy container and never had a problem. Now, in 10 jumps 3 line twists - cause - unstowed left brake. My last pack job was done very carefully triple checking the brakes by me and our jump master plus third skydiver. Brakes were stowed correctly. On opening left brake unstowed again causing line twist and cutaway: https://youtu.be/VD4rMlLPyJc I think there is a problem with risers. Brakes are unstowing easily, there is no velcro on these risers, just needle to keep the brake in place but not from going down - unstowing.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IanHarrop 41 #3 November 5, 2017 nicsoewI think there is a problem with risers. Brakes are unstowing easily, there is no velcro on these risers, just needle to keep the brake in place but not from going down - unstowing. Have you talked to the manufacturer?"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicsoew 0 #4 November 5, 2017 Not yet. I will contact them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
texascrw 1 #5 November 5, 2017 Order a set of snap toggle risers from Parachute Labs(the people that make the Racer H/C) Other than my CRW canopies with velcro toggles, they are all I will use. I have never had a problem with them, premature brake release or anything else. They will make them any length, color, type 17 or 8, mini or large rings, ss or cadium hardware, dive loops, or rsl ring if wanted. Each set is custom made, so you can have them just about anyway you want them. I am not affiliated with Parachute Labs and don't even own a Racer, just like their snap toggle risers. Best of luck, Fred Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicsoew 0 #6 November 5, 2017 Thnx for advice. I will change them for sure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RockSkyGirl 10 #7 November 5, 2017 Another option on new risers is the anti-fire toggle-riser set you can get from Innovative Parachute Technologies (www.innovativeparachute.com). Any length, any color. The toggles (again your choice on color) have a triple tab system which will not unstow on opening or when bringing your slider down or making a rear riser avoidance turn; the risers also have magnetic keepers for your excess line. I've noticed that the excess line likes to come free on opening if the risers are oriented such that the rear riser is stacked above the front riser against the side of the reserve tray (what I mean by that is closer to the outside of the container as opposed to closer to the backpad), and that's been true no matter what type of risers I've used. Try making sure you (or your packer if you're using one) lays the rear riser closer to the backpad and the front riser closer to the outside when packing; that might fix your problem, if it's simply a matter of a touchy toggle stowing system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmarshall234 13 #8 November 5, 2017 A couple of comments... Can't tell from the video but are you sure you aren't stripping the brake line loose by grabbing the risers during deployment. Also, instead of fighting the spin by grabbing the risers why not release the brake on the other side to stop the spin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #9 November 6, 2017 agree. they are the best. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blis 1 #10 November 6, 2017 Skywidesystems also make a very decent toggle setup and I have never heard of toggle fires with them... http://sws.aero/en/products/fire/main_container/risers/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sammielu 3 #11 November 6, 2017 How snug does the cat eye on your lines fit the nub on your toggles? How snug does your toggle nub fit into the keeper on your risers? Both are quick adjustments from your rigger. PS. Be sure you stow the excess brake line to the inside of the risers with the brake line that runs up to the canopy running on the outside of risers. It's a small thing that a lot of jumpers don't even think about, but it can definitely make a difference. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #12 November 6, 2017 QuotePS. Be sure you stow the excess brake line to the inside of the risers with the brake line that runs up to the canopy running on the outside of risers. It's a small thing that a lot of jumpers don't even think about, but it can definitely make a difference. Why? Derek V Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DHemer 0 #13 November 6, 2017 Lowers the risk of snagging the excess or sticking you hand through when grabbing the brakes. This would result in a knotted steering line Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deimian 43 #14 November 6, 2017 DHemerLowers the risk of snagging the excess or sticking you hand through when grabbing the brakes. This would result in a knotted steering line That's correct. But it also increases the chances of the excess snagging your camera/sight ring. That's a choice to make. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theMann 0 #15 November 6, 2017 I had this issue with my vortex 3, 11 brake fires in 28 jumps, cutaway last one. It seems to be partially dependant on riser length and the reserve packjob as the toggle was getting pinched between the reserve tray and the external riser covers. This didn't happen on previous reserve packjobs due to less bulk in the ears of the molar bag (My Assumption). My solution was for longer risers as this moved the toggle away from the pinch point but I wanted longer risers for swooping anyway. I haven't had any brakefires since. I tested this on the ground after my reserve was repacked. This was with the internal riser covers used however I had brakefire without using them too. I personally do not use them any more and lay them flat as it looks nicer without them and the external riser covers cover sufficiently alone. Video testing this on the ground after reserve repack: https://www.dropbox.com/s/o1kyb33min4286c/C0014.MP4?dl=0 Still showing pinch point: https://www.dropbox.com/s/aek5z9fymc5atxn/DSC09162.JPG?dl=0 My cutaway: https://www.dropbox.com/s/l0of0ihsc5o5t82/Brake%20Fire%20Cutaway.mp4?dl=0 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sammielu 3 #16 November 6, 2017 The force on the brake lines comes from the outside. Routing the line straight up from the guide ring to the outside edge of your canopy keeps all the tension in a straight line - so all the force goes where it is designed to go (up) without an angle that could cause the toggle to twist/shift and come unstowed. As an example, if people are ripping out their toggle keepers, its usually on only one side and it's because they set both brakes to one side (i.e. excess to the right side, not always to the inside)... Ugh. I'm having trouble explaining it. PS. I'm passing on info from my riggers, I didn't make it up. Proper brake stowing is always excess to the inside, brake lines to the outside, and so many jumpers and packers don't notice it. Those other reasons are valid but have no bearing on my point. PPS. If your excess brake line presents a snag hazard, stow it correctly. Any rigger can sew your favorite type of stow band/loop/velcro/whatever you like onto your risers, and you can stow it all while you walk in from landing if you need an extra 30 seconds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicsoew 0 #17 November 6, 2017 I want to thank you all for replies, I read them all carefully and learned some new things from you guys and girls. I will test it on the ground, talk with my rigger and go with one of the options mentioned here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicsoew 0 #18 November 6, 2017 rmarshall234A couple of comments... Can't tell from the video but are you sure you aren't stripping the brake line loose by grabbing the risers during deployment. Also, instead of fighting the spin by grabbing the risers why not release the brake on the other side to stop the spin. 1. I was careful regarding that because I had similar problem with this before 2. Honestly I don't know, I just went for the risers to solve line twist fast. After I failed instinct told me to cutaway because I don't use RSL and I wanted altitude for stabilization after cutaway. I now think going for the brakes would be better option but I solved 2 previous line twists fast by grabbing risers and then going for the brakes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicsoew 0 #19 November 6, 2017 sammieluThe force on the brake lines comes from the outside. Routing the line straight up from the guide ring to the outside edge of your canopy keeps all the tension in a straight line - so all the force goes where it is designed to go (up) without an angle that could cause the toggle to twist/shift and come unstowed. As an example, if people are ripping out their toggle keepers, its usually on only one side and it's because they set both brakes to one side (i.e. excess to the right side, not always to the inside)... Ugh. I'm having trouble explaining it. PS. I'm passing on info from my riggers, I didn't make it up. Proper brake stowing is always excess to the inside, brake lines to the outside, and so many jumpers and packers don't notice it. Those other reasons are valid but have no bearing on my point. PPS. If your excess brake line presents a snag hazard, stow it correctly. Any rigger can sew your favorite type of stow band/loop/velcro/whatever you like onto your risers, and you can stow it all while you walk in from landing if you need an extra 30 seconds. Well I did not know that, I was always stowing them to one side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicsoew 0 #20 November 6, 2017 sammieluHow snug does the cat eye on your lines fit the nub on your toggles? How snug does your toggle nub fit into the keeper on your risers? Both are quick adjustments from your rigger. PS. Be sure you stow the excess brake line to the inside of the risers with the brake line that runs up to the canopy running on the outside of risers. It's a small thing that a lot of jumpers don't even think about, but it can definitely make a difference. Both fit fine. I will take a photo next weekend in fact. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicsoew 0 #21 November 6, 2017 RockSkyGirlAnother option on new risers is the anti-fire toggle-riser set you can get from Innovative Parachute Technologies (www.innovativeparachute.com). Any length, any color. The toggles (again your choice on color) have a triple tab system which will not unstow on opening or when bringing your slider down or making a rear riser avoidance turn; the risers also have magnetic keepers for your excess line. I've noticed that the excess line likes to come free on opening if the risers are oriented such that the rear riser is stacked above the front riser against the side of the reserve tray (what I mean by that is closer to the outside of the container as opposed to closer to the backpad), and that's been true no matter what type of risers I've used. Try making sure you (or your packer if you're using one) lays the rear riser closer to the backpad and the front riser closer to the outside when packing; that might fix your problem, if it's simply a matter of a touchy toggle stowing system. Thnx for advices :) Untill I get new risers I'll try to see what I can do with these. I just don't want another cutaway :D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 137 #22 November 6, 2017 Maybe a couple of stitches can tighten the toggle keeper a little Check with your riggerscissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 107 #23 November 6, 2017 sammieluPS. I'm passing on info from my riggers, I didn't make it up. Okay, then they made it up. If the brakes are going to unstow because of something other than the slider hitting the toggles, they unstow while the slider is most of the way up and the angular difference from the slider grommet to one side of the riser or the other is negligible. -Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sammielu 3 #24 November 6, 2017 For me it's a RTFM issue that I don't need to understand. If the manual for my rig includes this detail and my riggers who each have 20+ years rigging experience tell me to do it, I pack that way. Does it matter or not? I don't know. Did I stop ripping out toggle keepers? Yes. Do I mention it to every jumper who has toggles often come unstowed or rip out their keepers? Yes. Does it fix the issue? Yes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keithbar 1 #25 November 6, 2017 I really like the high tech mounting system your buddy is using for his GoPro i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites