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NvyZero

Expired cypres in a riggers rig

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So I have heard of riggers using expired cypres 2 in their own rigs...
Why is this a bad idea if there are any... just trying to learn the reasons why ssk doesn't recommend using past 12 years... also from what I understand the cypres will still work... is his true?

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It's not just a bad idea, but also against the regulations (105.43(c)):

Quote

If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device.



The current manufacturer instructions are:

Quote

For units with DOM 12/15 and earlier the maintenance is mandatory to be performed 4 and 8 years after the original DOM. Service Life is 12.5 years.

For units made in 2016 the maintenance is recommended to be performed 4 and 8 years after original DOM. Service Life is 12.5 years.

For units with DOM 01/17 and later the maintenance is recommended to be performed 5 and 10 years after the original DOM. Service Life is 15.5 years.



Service life is based on component design, testing, real-world experience, and probably many other factors. You'd have to ask Airtec for details.

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Never really understood laws/regulations like that.

"(c) If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device."

You don't HAVE to have one, but if you do, it must blah blah blah.

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GoGoGadget

Never really understood laws/regulations like that.

"(c) If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device."

You don't HAVE to have one, but if you do, it must blah blah blah.



Yep, you don't have to turn it on, but if you do, you are breaking the rules.

Reminds me of a mate back in the day, always used the eyeball instead of an altimeter, and was told he had to wear an alti. His priority was to spend his money on jumps, so did not want to buy one.

He found a broken one in the rubbish, and attached it to his ankle where he couldn't see it anyway.

His point was that he was compliant with the rules as they were written, if not their intent.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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skytribe

So for cypres is it stated as service life or warranty period. If this is the case why do airtec/ask service AAD after 12.5 years ?



-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Holy thread diversion our dear skytribe!!!!!!!

You are the first person to mention "warranty"during a debate on AADs!

Warranty only relates to repairing manufacturing defects during the first few months after it left the factory. NO parachute component is warrantied to save your sorry ass! Even with the best manufactured, assembled and packed parachutes will not keep you alive if you make too many mistakes.

All the early Cypres retire after 12.5 years. Only Cypres 2 - made this year - will be factory-maintained by Airtec and only before their 15.5 year retirement date.

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obelixtim

***Never really understood laws/regulations like that.

"(c) If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device."

You don't HAVE to have one, but if you do, it must blah blah blah.



Yep, you don't have to turn it on, but if you do, you are breaking the rules.

Nope. You are breaking the rules by having it "installed" whether it's turned on or not. Read the regulation.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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obelixtim

Reminds me of a mate back in the day, always used the eyeball instead of an altimeter, and was told he had to wear an alti. His priority was to spend his money on jumps, so did not want to buy one.

He found a broken one in the rubbish, and attached it to his ankle where he couldn't see it anyway.

His point was that he was compliant with the rules as they were written, if not their intent.


Heh, then the rules are poorly written. Dutch regulations state that a functional, correctly set-up and during the jump readable altimeter is required, so shenanigans like that would be outside our rules. Que the discussion who needs to be able to read it, if you do RW and mount it on your ankle, your teammate should be able to read it ^_^.

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chuckakers

******Never really understood laws/regulations like that.

"(c) If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device."

You don't HAVE to have one, but if you do, it must blah blah blah.



Yep, you don't have to turn it on, but if you do, you are breaking the rules.

Nope. You are breaking the rules by having it "installed" whether it's turned on or not. Read the regulation.

Not all DZs (or countries) mandate AADs, so if you are at a DZ that does not mandate AADs you don't need to have one. Having one that is turned off, effectively is the same as not having one at all. Is it not?

And there is no "rule" that says an AAD must be fitted to a reserve. AADs fitted to main parachutes instead of reserves is not unknown.(But that is a separate issue)

And AAD requirements are not always hard "rules", mostly they are recommendations.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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obelixtim

*********Never really understood laws/regulations like that.

"(c) If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device."

You don't HAVE to have one, but if you do, it must blah blah blah.



Yep, you don't have to turn it on, but if you do, you are breaking the rules.

Nope. You are breaking the rules by having it "installed" whether it's turned on or not. Read the regulation.

Not all DZs (or countries) mandate AADs, so if you are at a DZ that does not mandate AADs you don't need to have one. Having one that is turned off, effectively is the same as not having one at all. Is it not?

And there is no "rule" that says an AAD must be fitted to a reserve. AADs fitted to main parachutes instead of reserves is not unknown.(But that is a separate issue)

And AAD requirements are not always hard "rules", mostly they are recommendations.

You are correct, not all countries require them, and the regulation is USA-FAA regulation and so limited to just us...
That said, many (most?) DZ's in the US require an AAD be installed and turned on for you to jump there... at which point, as there is one installed in the rig, it must also by Govt regulation be properly maintained.

Moreover, take that same rig to a DZ that doesn't require its use and turn it off... you are STILL required to maintain it as it is "installed".

Other countries, different regs/recommendations/suggestions/behaviors.

(but same physics in play, and same hard earth below... funny how that doesn't change with international boarders, language, race, religion, etc...)

JW
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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obelixtim

And there is no "rule" that says an AAD must be fitted to a reserve.



In the US, FAR 105.3 Definitions: "Automatic Activation Device means a self-contained mechanical or electro-mechanical device that is attached to the interior of the reserve parachute container, which automatically initiates parachute deployment of the reserve parachute at a pre-set altitude, time, percentage of terminal velocity, or combination thereof."

We do not have a name for the same device fitted to a main.

-Mark

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"Not all DZs (or countries) mandate AADs." True.

"Having one [installed] that is turned off, effectively is the same as not having one [installed] at all." Not really. The AAD is still installed in your rig.

For skydiving under US regulations, Chuck is right. Installing an AAD not maintained i/a/w manufacturer instructions for that device would violate FAR 105.43(c). Seems clear for operations in the US.

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riggerrob

***So for cypres is it stated as service life or warranty period. If this is the case why do airtec/ask service AAD after 12.5 years ?



-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Holy thread diversion our dear skytribe!!!!!!!

You are the first person to mention "warranty"during a debate on AADs!

Warranty only relates to repairing manufacturing defects during the first few months after it left the factory. NO parachute component is warrantied to save your sorry ass! Even with the best manufactured, assembled and packed parachutes will not keep you alive if you make too many mistakes.

All the early Cypres retire after 12.5 years. Only Cypres 2 - made this year - will be factory-maintained by Airtec and only before their 15.5 year retirement date.

The intent was not to divert the thread but more to say what is written by airtec rather than what is implied. Why would a company service anything beyond its service life. Do they think people are getting stuff serviced for use as a paper weight.

Take a look in the manual for reference to 12.5 years. Page 40 is the only reference.

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skytribe


Take a look in the manual for reference to 12.5 years. Page 40 is the only reference.



Take a look in the right manual.

See page 55 of the Jan. 2017 revised manual.

"For units with DOM 12/15 and earlier the
maintenance is mandatory to be performed
4 and 8 years after the original DOM.
Service Life is 12.5 years.
For units made in 2016 the maintenance is recom-
mended to be performed 4 and 8 years after original
DOM. Service Life is 12.5 years.
For units with DOM 01/17 and later the main-
tenance is recommended to be performed 5 and
10 years after the original DOM. Service Life is
15.5 years."
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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Agreeing with councilman ......

If you mailed a Cypres 1 (or most Cypres 2 production) back to the factory after its 12th birthday, Airtec staff would have a good laugh and offer you a discount on a new Cypres. In 2032, if you mail a 2017-made Cypres to Airtec or SSK, they will have a good laugh and offer you a discount on a new Cypres.
Bottom line, no factory will: inspect, assemble, repair, modify, alter, update or pack any parachute component after its planned retirement. Retirement schedule is written in the manual.

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First time I have heard that rumour.
But I have only been jumping for 40 years and rigging for 33 years.

Do you remember the biblical story about Jesus Christ encountered a crowd stoning an adulteress? Jesus stepped into the fray and said:"Let he who is without sin throw the first stone."
"A boulder the-size-of-a-watermelon sailed over the crowd, crushing the accused's skull."
Jesus looked to the back of the crowd. "Mom! Some days you can be a real bitch!"
Hah!
Hah!

Responding seriously to the OP's question: when Airtec was testing Cypres 1 prototypes, they subjected them to thousands of hot and old cycles. Eventually they determined that soldered joints might fail after 12 years of hard use.

These tests are standard for a wide variety of aerospace components. Engineers try to imagine the most rugged service life ..... Try to picture a flying school with student pilots landing hard dozens of times per day. Then engineers simulate that abuse in a lab. Once they have determined how long a component with last in rough service, they delete the last 30% and set that as the maximum service life.
MSL might be defined by years ..... number of landings ..... hot-cold cycles ..... corrosion ..... etc. MSL is at best an educated guess by knowledgeable engineers.

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Hi Tim,

Quote

Having one that is turned off, effectively is the same as not having one at all. Is it not?



I used to be of this thinking. Just turn it off & you're good to go.

However, over time, the batteries can deteriorate and destroy/damage the canopy, etc that is in the reserve pack tray.

Jerry Baumchen

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Quote

However, over time, the batteries can deteriorate and destroy/damage the canopy, etc that is in the reserve pack tray.




Are you sure? I've never heard of lithium battery doing that. Just older chemistry ones.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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obelixtim

*********Never really understood laws/regulations like that.

"(c) If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device."

You don't HAVE to have one, but if you do, it must blah blah blah.



Yep, you don't have to turn it on, but if you do, you are breaking the rules.

Nope. You are breaking the rules by having it "installed" whether it's turned on or not. Read the regulation.

Not all DZs (or countries) mandate AADs, so if you are at a DZ that does not mandate AADs you don't need to have one. Having one that is turned off, effectively is the same as not having one at all. Is it not?

And there is no "rule" that says an AAD must be fitted to a reserve. AADs fitted to main parachutes instead of reserves is not unknown.(But that is a separate issue)

And AAD requirements are not always hard "rules", mostly they are recommendations.

I was referring only to the US regulation. Whether a DZ requires AAD's has no bearing on the requirement to follow FAR's.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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gowlerk

Quote

However, over time, the batteries can deteriorate and destroy/damage the canopy, etc that is in the reserve pack tray.




Are you sure? I've never heard of lithium battery doing that. Just older chemistry ones.



-------------------------------------------------------------------

I have seen one Cypres 1 battery short-circuit and over-heat. I detected the unusual temperature when I touched the bottom wall. I quickly removed the Cypres, removed the battery and sent the AAD back to SSK. Fortunately, I reacted quick enough to prevent long-term damage to AAD, canopy or container.

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