25 yr old "like New" canopy...???

[thetreehugger 0]

On the hunt for my first canopy, I found one that may work for me. It is a Falcon 175. Thing is, it is 25 yrs old. It's been well cared for, spent most of it's life packed/not used. It probably has *maybe* 200 jumps on it?

Does age matter, even if it wasn't used all that much? Like does fabric degrade even if it's been well cared for, simply because of time?

[Blis 1]

If it had zero jumps it might have some value... It's 25-30 years old design made most likely of 0-3cfm fabric that flies slightly better than used umbrella.

If we add to that formula your very small experience in landing parachutes there's a very real possibility that you will hurt yourself badly and even in best case scenario you will start to dislike canopy piloting because your canopy sucks badly...

All in all, get a newer canopy...

[pchapman 261]

Fabric if well stored and not kept at a high temperature only degrades very very slowly. And remember that people now are still using 20-25 year old PD reserves. So that aspect is ok.

If you are used to F-111 landings on a smaller canopy, no problem.
If you are used to snappy 80s style openings, no problem.

If not .... you probably can pass on it.
I know newbies are always looking for a good deal, and old does not equal "bad", but there are some items it is easier to just skip.

(If it is a super cheap deal, yes it is usable for a newbie who has little money. And I've known someone who did in recent years start with F-111 and then transitioned to newer gear. But a canopy like that has little to do with modern skydiving.)

[thetreehugger 0]

Yeah. I'll probably pass on it.

Just facing a conundrum. The rental/student gear leaves me with bruises on my thighs because it does NOT fit me at all. (Slim build, but 5'9) And any wind and i get nervous i wont make the DZ, even with a great spot because i fly almost backwards with the giant canopies.

Eager to get my own well fitting gear, but dont want to spend a ton on something i may want to switcb out later. Not in a rush to downsize at all, but may want a different canopy or container if i'm not keen on what i first get.

[chuckakers 370]

Blis

If it had zero jumps it might have some value... It's 25-30 years old design made most likely of 0-3cfm fabric that flies slightly better than used umbrella.

If we add to that formula your very small experience in landing parachutes there's a very real possibility that you will hurt yourself badly and even in best case scenario you will start to dislike canopy piloting because your canopy sucks badly...

All in all, get a newer canopy...

The value of an old but lightly used canopy can be debated, but your comment about the OP getting hurt has no merit, regardless of his skill level.

When I started jumping in the mid-1980's we didn't have Zero-P fabric and 99% of canopies were 7-cell pigs, yet there were no more injuries per capita on those than there are now on canopies with modern designs. There may have even been fewer given how many people get hurt these days because of mishandling canopies with strong performance characteristics.

The Falcon is a perfectly viable option for jumpers who are willing to accept less performance than the zippy ZP's of today. In fact, Falcons are used by some schools as student canopies (I had them in all my student rigs when I ran a DZ), and let's remember that some people actually prefer lower performance canopies. They also cost less, pack easier, and have a smaller pack volume for a given size than ZP.

The only thing I would warn the OP about is not to overload a Falcon. Wing loadings higher than about 1:1 cause a noticeable drop off in landing performance in F-111 canopies.

BTW, people still buy them brand new. http://www.paragear.com/skydiving/10000220/C88/PRECISION-AERODYNAMICS-FALCON-MAIN-PARACHUTE[url]

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[pms07 3]

You probably couldn't give away a 25 year old canopy made from F-111 to most experienced jumpers, thus it is almost worthless.

Could it be safely jumped? Perhaps, but I wouldn't jump it without it going back to the manufacturer for evaluation. Yes, age matters. Yes, fabric can degrade over time. And yes, you should probably look for a more modern design that is not so old. Most of the advertised "bargain" parachutes are no bargain...

[IJskonijn 38]

pms07

You probably couldn't give away a 25 year old canopy made from F-111 to most experienced jumpers, thus it is almost worthless.

Could it be safely jumped? Perhaps, but I wouldn't jump it without it going back to the manufacturer for evaluation. Yes, age matters. Yes, fabric can degrade over time. And yes, you should probably look for a more modern design that is not so old. Most of the advertised "bargain" parachutes are no bargain...

I'm less worried about the physical state of a 25-year old canopy that's stored properly than I am about the mental state of the jumper. In my understanding, such designs (and the F111-fabric) requires a different mentality regarding landings and a different flaring technique. Instructors nowadays are used to ZP canopies that land best when using a two-stage flare, and are thus best at teaching that technique. I'm worried the generic instructor doesn't have the mindset and skills anymore to teach landing such an old design properly, and that is what makes it dangerous.

But then again, pretty much all reserves are built to the same design philosophy using F111 (or similar low-porosity fabric), and people keep landing those well enough to survive, even at higher wingloadings. And many downright horrendous landings can be saved by a properly executed landing roll.

If the price of the canopy is good, and if OP can find an old fart instructor at his home DZ who's willing to coach him regarding landings, and if OP invests some serious time in perfecting his landing roll, I see no big reasons not to do it.

(Seriously, a good landing roll is one of the most undervalued skills a skydiver can have. Nobody looks cool being carried into an ambulance.)

[gowlerk 1,909]

Listen to Chuck. (always) Falcons are 9 cell non ZP canopies of fairly modern, but not up to date design. They work fine and are still often used in student gear. But mostly in larger sizes. A 175 is a pretty small Falcon. The material used will start to become more porous as it ages. By 500 jumps or so it will have lost a lot of it's performance. At 200 jumps it should still be good.

Contrary to what some people believe, nylon does not degrade over time in any significant way. However, non ZP parachute fabric degrades with use. Not because the nylon degrades, (although UV exposure does degrade it) but because the weave of the cloth itself opens up and lets air pass through it.

A low jump number Falcon of the correct size for your weight is a safe and effective canopy to use for learning on. Especially if money is tight. They can be had for pretty cheap because there is not much demand for them. Just be sure you are actually getting one with low jumps. You can usually tell by looking at the lines. If the canopy has been re-lined stay away from it. By the time a lineset gets worn out on this type of canopy the material will be worn out as well.


By the way, the Falcon 9 cell is also a certificated canopy and as such can be used a reserve canopy if it is in brand new condition.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[sammielu 3]

25 years is a long time.
Where has it been this whole time? How was it stored? Has a rigger inspected it yet? Was it packed in the container in a musty garage, basement, or closet? How does it smell? Does it even open up or is it bonded to itself forever?

Someone has to pay a rigger to inspect it before jumping it. Sight unseen, from an unknown source, I wouldn't gamble the money ($30 minimum to ship a canopy each way, plus whatever your rigger charges for a full inspection). If you buy it upon inspection, have it shipped to your rigger and inspected and it fails for any reason, you now have to pay to send it back and don't have a canopy to jump at the end. Adds up to a big no for me.

That said, I personally have a Safire canopy addiction and currently own 3 that were made in 1999 - 2001 and each cost me less than $500. There is one example of a modern design that has been around for long enough to have some old (and perfectly servicable) canopies still on the market for cheap.

Modern canopies hold their resale value if you buy the big brands and the basic models (any model Safire or a Sabre II); there will always be a newbie who is ready for your used main when you're done with it.

[chuckakers 370]

IJskonijn

I'm less worried about the physical state of a 25-year old canopy that's stored properly than I am about the mental state of the jumper. In my understanding, such designs (and the F111-fabric) requires a different mentality regarding landings and a different flaring technique. Instructors nowadays are used to ZP canopies that land best when using a two-stage flare, and are thus best at teaching that technique. I'm worried the generic instructor doesn't have the mindset and skills anymore to teach landing such an old design properly, and that is what makes it dangerous.

There is very little difference in flaring technique between F-111 and ZP canopies at similar, moderate wing loadings and shouldn't take anyone with special training to teach the minor differences. Often ZP canopies require a slower, longer flare to keep them from "popping up" but beyond that flaring any canopy properly is fundamentally the same.

The flare begins at an altitude that will take best advantage of the reaction altitude and lift generation capabilities of the canopy and ends when the canopy has slowed to the point where it stops producing enough lift to support the pilot's weight (or when the forward speed is zero in the case of flying in windy conditions). In between those two points the pilot simply adjusts the speed of the flare to allow the feet to come close to the ground without touching, and then "milks" the flare to stay in the air while the canopy bleeds off the remaining airspeed. It really is that simple.

ZP canopies do not "land best" using a 2-stage flare. 2-stage flaring is a technique taught to assist jumpers in flaring higher performance wings, but does not result in the canopy performing any better. Rather than flaring partially and stopping, a jumper can just as easily start the flare a little higher and flare a little slower in one smooth motion, again adjusting the speed of the flare so as not to run into the ground (too slow) and not gain altitude (too fast).

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[thetreehugger 0]

Why are people assuming i'm a male poster?

Anyway. There isnt a chance a 175 would be overloaded with me. At my exit weight, it'd still only be loaded at .7 (like i said, i'm slim and 5'8, which is why i nearly blow away on the damn 240/270s at my DZ!)

This is all good info.

The canopy is owned by someone at my DZ who got it in a container they bought. We have riggers that could check it out.

I'll weigh options carefully. Thanks everyone. Will most likely pass.

[gowlerk 1,909]

Quote

Anyway. There isnt a chance a 175 would be overloaded with me. At my exit weight, it'd still only be loaded at .7 (like i said, i'm slim and 5'8, which is why i nearly blow away on the damn 240/270s at my DZ!)

Come and visit us in Gimli, MB then. Ladies like you are the reason we keep a Navigator 200 in a small harness on the rental rack!

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.