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mbohu

Landing Pattern

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OK, I'm going to risk it. I'm going to post a question that for some reason is getting people at my dropzone very upset, when I pose it there. Maybe someone can explain to me where I'm completely off here:

My dropzone has a few features:
1. we have a large arrow indicating the direction we are supposed to land in (against the prevailing ground winds. Since I mostly jump in low wind conditions, the arrow tends to move. You generally don't know which way its pointing at until you're 2000-1000 ft off the gound
2. There are 3 zones that we are not supposed to fly over under 1000ft: The runway, the tandem landing area, the high performance (swooping) "pond" (it's dry but it used to be a pond)
3. We do not have an agreed upon landing pattern in terms of left-handed versus right-handed

I'm a bit nerdy 9used to run a software company), started skydiving at age 50 and relatively heavy, jumping at high altitude (the ground is 5k+ feet above sea level)--so I feel things are already somewhat stacked against me, so I like to be safe, and one way for me to feel (and hopefully be) safe is to understand things conceptually, as much as I can.

So I purchased many of Brian Germain's courses. In one he suggests to map out landing patterns in different wind situations on a map. I did so with a sattelite picture of our drop zone and Photoshop (see attached image).
Now the problem is, that it confirmed the problems I encountered when flying with certain wind directions.
The fact that the landing zone (while very generous in size) is boxed in on 3 sides seems to make it impossible to fit a standard landing pattern in when the winds are not parallel to the runway.

In the picture you can see 4 landing patterns at different wind directions. They are calculated for a student canopy with 3:1 glide ratio (so 3 times the horizontal distance versus vertical). The yellow solid circle is where most good jumpers land. The red shaded areas are the areas we are not supposed to fly over, under 1000ft.
I assumed down-wind start at 900ft, base at 600ft and final at 300ft. some moderate wind would lengthen the downwind leg and shorten the final. That's what is drawn on the map.

As you can see, there is sometimes just no way to properly fly that pattern without crossing one of the forbidden areas--especially when the wind is out of the north (see yellow landing pattern)

When pointing this out to more experienced jumpers I get one of two reactions: 1. They get angry and tell me that I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.
2. They do try to be helpful and suggest I can widen my turns or otherwise slightly adjust my pattern--but none of it quite seems to be enough to resolve this theoretical problem.
3. Nobody wants to take the time to look at the pattern in Photoshop (I understand: Most skydivers probably think that's way too nerdy!)

Here is what I experience in praxis:
1. With some adjustments I can usually JUST fit a pattern in, but it really is usually JUST fitting: So I land very close to the runway or on the outer portion of the landing area (again, this is if the wind direction is unfavorable. If it is parallel to the runway I am getting quite accurate.--but if the wind speed changes during final approach on one of those days the arrow points in an unfavorable direction, i am afraid I might overshoot
2. When watching others: They sometimes simply do not seem to fly proper landing patterns (or maybe they fly "more advanced" patterns?!) and they do sometimes fly straight over one of the forbidden zones (usually over the runway)

So, I am confused. I'd love some advice on how to approach this. Again, I've not had a real problem with landing yet, but it does seem that when the winds are unfavorable things could go wrong easily (and I've seen others land straight on the runway or in other unsafe ways.)

Explanation of the graphic: red shaded areas are no-fly below 1000ft; the landing zone is framed by these 3 areas; the yellow circle is the spot I would generally like to land near; the landing patterns are the 3 connected lines in the same color; the short line is the final approach, the longest line the downwind leg; the toughest one is the one landing to the north (in yellow) You can see I can't even find a way to fit it in without crossing the runway under 1000ft.
(as each leg is 300 vertical ft., at a glide ratio of 3:1 I end up with each leg 900 ft long at no wind. At moderate wind, the downwind leg is going to be even longer and the final approach a bit shorter--that's how I determined the shape of the pattern)

Thanks--let me have it!

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First thought that comes to mind is that you should get away from the mindset that pattern altitudes are absolute, for example 1000ft to begin your downwind leg might actually be 800ft or 1100ft depending on the ground wind conditions (and canopy choice). Secondly we're not limited to strict to 90 degree turns, there's always some variation (say, 70 to 110 degrees)...

Now, picking apart those landing patterns one by one...

Blue one seems fine, cutting the base leg shorter you could hit the yellow circle very nicely.

Same goes for the green one, shorten the base leg and maybe make turn into base leg less than 90 and turn to final more than 90. That way you will land on middle of the grass (but not on the circle)

Red pattern, move entry point to west next to no-go area. Make a lot longer base leg with short final towards the circle.

Yellow pattern is obviously the most difficult, I personally would forget that approach totally and just land crosswind. If you insist on that pattern then I would move entry point just after the runway, next to tandem area. Fly downwind leg between tandem and swoop area after which turn into long base parallel to swoop area. After you pass the swoop area turn onto final (maybe turn more than 90 to make it closer to middle)....


Hope this helps...

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Thanks. Yes. Helps somewhat.

On the yellow pattern I've experimented with 2 things: (landing cross-wind seems to be highly discouraged. Everyone says you MUST land where the arrow is pointing unless you see others before you landing a certain way, when you should follow them in, rather than "chasing the arrow)

1. I turn it so it is more like 90deg to the runway and start at the NE corner of the landing zone, follow the edge of the tandem zone, turn 90deg and follow the edge of the swoop zone--making that leg very long and then turn final late. works but gets me very far to the west end of the zone and close to the access road of the landing strip.

2. I tried flying a long base leg on the south side of the swoop zone. Also works but if wind strength changes and I don't make it to the end of the pond still high enough for turning to final, I'd have to land cross-wind in the high grass.

What feels uncomfortable is that both options feel like they work but they JUST work..so it just feels tight, not much room when things go wrong.

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You should be fitting into the landing pattern. Based on info you have given us as well as jump numbers, I am guessing you have plenty of people to follow down. Don't be a lemming, but you should be 'safely' enter the landing pattern (whatever it is) and following those before you. If you are uncomfortable with this, find somewhere far, far away from the main landing area to land. Most DZ's that I've been to in Cal, Or and Wash have such areas. And as has been stated, you could use a more fluid approach with your landing patterns. Do what you have to do to land safely without hosing others. Sometimes that may mean landing far away.

__________________________________________

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I think you should get a flysight.

It's really valuable to map out a landing pattern plan, then fly it and see exactly what you actually did and where it got you - not just where you landed but exact altitudes for all turns and your speed.

Like you, I have a mind for precision and numbers, and boy that thing is the most fun learning tool I've seen for canopy flight!!

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New jumper as well, but here's my 2c, fwiw.

First, I agree that you're being too slavish with your pattern points. With a shorter base leg, both your blue and green patterns (parallel to the runway) should fit comfortably in the designated landing area.

Second, landing into the wind is nice, of course, but it's not one of the official USPA SIM landing priorities. (Note too that aircraft have just two options when it comes to landing direction, so they make successful crosswind landings all the time.)

My DZ also has a long, narrow landing area w/ no-go areas all around. So, like aircraft we have just two options -- a north landing or a south landing -- and I haven't observed a single bad landing caused by crosswinds.

This will vary with wind speed, but so far I've been fine either coming in with a slight crab or compensating with some light, asymmetric brake input. That said, if I'm ever faced with a 15 or 20 mph crosswind, I'll definitely be seeking guidance from more experienced jumpers.

To summarize, shorten your base and get comfortable with crosswind landings :-) Ok, hope this helps.

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Blis

First thought that comes to mind is that you should get away from the mindset that pattern altitudes are absolute, for example 1000ft to begin your downwind leg might actually be 800ft or 1100ft depending on the ground wind conditions (and canopy choice). Secondly we're not limited to strict to 90 degree turns, there's always some variation (say, 70 to 110 degrees)...



This is where my mind went as well. There is nothing to keep you from flying a tighter, lower pattern. Just be sure to make your turn to final with enough altitude to recover from any increase in descent rate from the turn.

Also, your pattern doesn't have to be "square". When the need dictates you can use a short base leg and if your DZ doesn't have a restriction in degrees of turn you can skip the base leg all together and just make a 180 from downwind to final.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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chuckakers


and if your DZ doesn't have a restriction in degrees of turn you can skip the base leg all together and just make a 180 from downwind to final.



I 100% agree with everything else you said, those were going to be my two points as well (change altitudes, change degrees of turn, even change the orientation of you downwind leg and make it also upwind if necessary, square patterns are indeed just "conventions") but, generally speaking, I would strongly advise against this.
I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

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This isn't an uncommon situation for newbies, to be told to follow a bunch of rules. Experienced jumpers know which rules are harder or softer or rules of thumb or presented too simplistically or which take precedence over others when there's a conflict. But the studious newbie tries to satisfy all the rules simultaneously and his brain explodes trying to do so.

This era of digital altimeters and recorders like Flysight have some advantages, but also make it more confusing for newbies. In the old days everyone knew the numbers were approximate, as you didn't have a lot of time to try to read off a millimetre or two difference on your analog wrist altimeter and decide "Should I turn yet? Am I at 400 or 600'?" If someone asked me at what altitudes I turn, when doing a non-accelerated landing pattern, I really have no idea. Why would I ever bother to look at my alti -- yes still an old analog -- once I get close to the circuit? I just care about locations over the ground and flight path angles and where everyone else is.

An alti in the circuit helps more for the newbie trying to figure things out .... but if others give him numbers that don't apply well or are less important than other factors, then it is confusing.

By now you've heard some of this already but here goes with the advice:

The circuit heights people are told are not always the ones people actually use, and are sometimes higher than even newbies need. 900 600 300 might actually by 700 400 250 or similar. Especially when the area is tight.

The base leg can be shortened to pretty much just to: "turn, go straight and look around briefly, and another turn onto final". It doesn't need to be a long segment. As long as base it isn't so short that on downwind one is descending face to face with people on long finals! Then final approach just needs to be long enough that you can make minor adjustments to your flight path and be ready to flare without rushing. Down the road at higher experience level, a jumper might be doing an accelerated landing so even a 90 degree turn onto final transitions straight to a flare.

And I'll emphasize that any of the above is modified by having to fit in with what everyone else is doing. You'll just have to manage any conflicts in real time so that you neither scare yourself or anyone else in the air, and still find a spot to land safely.

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This isn't an uncommon situation for newbies, to be told to follow a bunch of rules. Experienced jumpers know which rules are harder or softer or rules of thumb or presented too simplistically or which take precedence over others when there's a conflict.



I think this might be my main problem...and it's what I've been fishing for when talking to people at my DZ. I grew up in a Germanic country, so when you tell me the rule is this, I take it to mean this is E.X.A.C.T.L.Y the rule to be followed. The funny thing is everyone keeps saying that you have to do a landing pattern with no more than 90 deg turns, you cannot skip a leg (entering the pattern with a long cross-wind leg for example) and you absolutely HAVE to follow that damn arrow (unless you are following someone else in who is lower than you.)
And again, in praxis it looks like most experienced jumpers are not following these rules (not talking about high-performance landings, but regular landing patterns)

I do get the point about cross-wind landings. There was a time when the arrow on the ground was broken and at that point we just decided on the ground before going up that we would all land in a specific direction (no matter if it was downwind or somewhat cross-wind). It made everything extremely easy.
The difficulty is: I'm at 2000ft, I have to find the arrow and look where it's pointing--usually not the same direction it was pointing when we left the ground; then I have to map out a pattern in my head, figure out if I can actually make it to the entry point within 1000ft; then try to figure out what pattern other canopies are actually flying (when it looks like they aren't really flying patterns following these same rules--that is the hardest: I can see what direction they are landing but I cannot usually make out their pattern before the final leg--last weekend someone was across the runway all the way to 200ft before they turned south and crossed it, going straight under me)

So what I've been doing is to instead mostly think about "what will get me down most safely" and "how can I stay away from other canopies".

This all works for me, but it does not get me to an exact landing point. So, when I read that based on the SIM I'm supposed to be able to land within a certain number of feet of a pre-chosen location every time, I feel like I'm failing miserably. The exact landing location is always the thing that I adjust so everything else can fit--so it's my last priority. I can hit a location pretty well, when the wind direction is the same one on landing as it was when I planned it on the ground, but in all other cases it goes straight out the window.

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mbohu

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So what I've been doing is to instead mostly think about "what will get me down most safely" and "how can I stay away from other canopies".



This!

***This all works for me, but it does not get me to an exact landing point. So, when I read that based on the SIM I'm supposed to be able to land within a certain number of feet of a pre-chosen location every time, I feel like I'm failing miserably. The exact landing location is always the thing that I adjust so everything else can fit--so it's my last priority. I can hit a location pretty well, when the wind direction is the same one on landing as it was when I planned it on the ground, but in all other cases it goes straight out the window.



You have 50 jumps. You will get better with accuracy the more you jump. It is far more important to land away from others than to land with someone in the peas. I will choose a long walk back as opposed to a short crawl back any day of the week.

With more experience you will learn to avoid others and land accurately MOST of the time. Sometimes it's better to land off than get yourself killed by someone else.

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mbohu

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This isn't an uncommon situation for newbies, to be told to follow a bunch of rules. Experienced jumpers know which rules are harder or softer or rules of thumb or presented too simplistically or which take precedence over others when there's a conflict.



I think this might be my main problem...and it's what I've been fishing for when talking to people at my DZ. I grew up in a Germanic country, so when you tell me the rule is this, I take it to mean this is E.X.A.C.T.L.Y the rule to be followed...

...So what I've been doing is to instead mostly think about "what will get me down most safely" and "how can I stay away from other canopies".

This all works for me, but it does not get me to an exact landing point. So, when I read that based on the SIM I'm supposed to be able to land within a certain number of feet of a pre-chosen location every time, I feel like I'm failing miserably. The exact landing location is always the thing that I adjust so everything else can fit--so it's my last priority. I can hit a location pretty well, when the wind direction is the same one on landing as it was when I planned it on the ground, but in all other cases it goes straight out the window.



It takes some time to figure out what is a "rule" and what is a "guideline."

And your priority of "getting down safely" is the right one.

As long as it's safe, location is not a big deal (even a safe 'off landing' is better than getting hurt trying to make it back to the DZ).

Yes, there are accuracy requirements, but leave those for a day when the wind makes the pattern favorable.

At my DZ, landing direction is either east or west. No other real choice.

But, we all know that if the wind is north or south, that just about everyone will be taking a bit of a turn into the wind on short final. We keep an eye on each other, make sure we aren't cutting anyone off and take a bit of the crosswind component out of it.

And I've thought about this some. Read through it before reacting (it's a bit critical).

Part of the problem getting your ideas accepted is the way you are presenting them.

Apparently, this DZ has well established, somewhat non-standard landing protocols. I'm guessing they've been doing this a while and it works for them (and will for you once you get it dialed in).

So you come along, with patterns out of the SIM and Brian's book.
You try to tell them that they are doing it wrong and should do it this way.

And they aren't terribly receptive to your ideas.

It's not that your ideas aren't good ones.
But the folks that have been there a while have likely been through this more than once.

Given their layout, they likely have played around with patterns and such and found what works best there.

Is it possible that there's a better way? Sure.

They could likely get more "according to the book" patterns with crosswind landings. But while they aren't a big deal, some people aren't comfortable with them. Some won't do them at all.

But don't expect them to change their ways just because another new guy comes along with ideas about patterns. Whether or not they should is less of a question that whether or not they will.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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But don't expect them to change their ways just because another new guy comes along with ideas about patterns. Whether or not they should is less of a question that whether or not they will.



Wise words! Thank you! You seem to be a person I wouldn't mind discussing politics and religion with! :D

I'll try to keep my "they should be doing this my way!" thoughts under control! Probably a good survival skill in many areas of life!

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My 2 cents, as an instructor to a newbie. I've never seen you fly or been to your dz so this has to be generalized info:

The most important part of your pattern to other people in the air is predictability. Keep your downwind leg straight and parallel to your final leg, and do whatever you need to do with your degree of turn, speed of turn (including using different inputs), and length or angle of your base leg to work on accuracy; just keep the other two legs straight and calm and others in the sky will have a better idea of how to avoid hitting you.

it is totally possible to fly downwind, do a single 180 degree turn, and hit your target with zero other inputs - you'd just have to make that turn at exactly the right time and with exactly the right amount and speed of input to get you where you want, without looking at your target (because it's behind you). That's possible, but pretty difficult so you won't see people working on accuracy or pro ratings flying that way.

Instead, keep your target in sight and you can adjust mid turn and during the whole pattern as needed.

Step 1: Your goal is to start your pattern at the same altitude and the same place relative to your target every time. The target can change (the X, thst tuft of grass, thst brown spot, next to that whstever it is), but your starting point in relation to it stays the same. For example, 900' with the target 90 degrees to your side and 45 degrees down. Given that you keep your bodyweight and gear the same for each jump, now the only variables for each landing pattern are wind during that jump and your inputs to the canopy. Its common to need help to determine what a 45 degree angle looks like, that's just step 1, dont get discouraged. Expect the wind to be a bit different every single time, even if the wind flag looks the same.

Step 2: On the ground - do some practice thinking, talking, and walking the different lengths for the final leg of your pattern according to the wind (i.e. to hit the same target, if there is no wind to resist how far you fly, you will travel farther over the ground and therefore need to start your final leg farther from the target). 3 basic scenarios to consider here, for each you should know what the wind indicators at your dz look like (zero wind, medium wind, lots of wind where you can expect to travel straight down on your final leg).
In the air: before you start your pattern and while you fly your downwind, have a goal for where you want to start your final leg (i.e. far away if it's not windy, really close to the target if it is windy, etc). Then use your length of downwind, length of base, and degree/speed of turns to get there.

Note: Always give yourself distance to have a nice big base leg so you have more time to make corrections. Is the wind rocketing you away from your target? Oh shit, turn in now. Did you do too lazy of a turn to start your base and now you're high? Ok, just do a faster 90 degree turn onto final. Alternatively, fly zero base leg, have your entire pattern follow one straight line over the ground with one 180 degree turn, and if you made any mistake at all you have no control where you'll land (sarcasm alert). Sounds funny but this is where pattern shapes accommodate wind and obstacles. Sometimes, in tight spots you will have to fly a narrower pattern to avoid flying over the runway, as an example, or you have a shorter distance for final. My dz has one of those too. Its a challenge, but there are solutions. I'll look at your maps/pics in a bit from my computer.

Step 3: Plan to not make any adjustments on final. Of course things happen, you might need to steer into the wind, avoid someone on the ground who is supposed to be watching to get out of your way, shift slightly to avoid hitting the Windsock, etc. In general, your goal is to turn onto final, do nothing, and see where you land. If you turn to final, counter turn to adjust for too hard of a turn, try front risers to get you down, remember that's a bad idea to try close to the ground and release, feet high up to go faster, instinctively flare a bit early because that might help and six other inputs in a row and then you hit your target... well that's going to be really hard to do the next time. Final should be calm, slow down, deep breath, ready to flare.

Step 4: Evaluate how it went. What was your plan? Did you fly that plan (this is where the flysight comes in)? Did the plan work? If you flew your plan and it didn't work, time for a new plan.

Get yourself into PD Flight-1 course as soon as you can. You shoukd take 101 and 102 straight away. They're amazing and you will learn a ton!!

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I added a fancy hand drawn on my phone option for your yellow pattern.

Your landing area looks tight, but not all that tight. If they land students at your airport, it's big enough.

Practice different types of 90degree turn to have more options: a really fast one to use when you need to burn altitude, flat turns, braked turns, stopping turns, and recovering from turns.

Consider ways to get the sky to yourself and ask if the rules change (i.e. can you fly over the swoop lane a little bit on the corner if you're definitely the last one down? What if there are no tandems on the load you're on? - just make damn sure you're right when you assume tandem or shoppers aren't in the air at all).

My fun jump canopies are a 143 and a 150, loaded around 1.4 because I like burritos and beer. I usually belly fly, usually in the first group to leave the plane... and I'm almost always landing last (aside from tandems, sometimes wingsuits, and wL 1:1 190s in my same group). I pull as high as is safe for the jump and dz (usually I let go of my pc at 3.8 or 4k, per my flysight). As soon as my canopy is open, I hook my thumbs under my laterals or into my hip rings (with toggles in hand - super deep brakes using my rig as as rest to save my muscles) and wait for everyone to get out of my way. If I can get the sky to myself most of the time, so can you. Plus that's so much time to watch everyone else's mistakes (is everyone landing short? Its windy on the ground. Everyone at the very end of the landing area? We're coming in fast and I'll need some room).

Obviously I like discussing thus stuff. PM me if you like :)
Blues,
Sam

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Thanks. Great tips. Did you upload the hand-drawn yellow pattern?

I did take the 101 flight course and waiting for them to offer 102 near me. You're right. The course was awesome. Just being able to get from a slow smooth flare that pretty much just slowed down my descent without ever leveling me out to a 2-step flare that clearly had me zooming parallel to the ground before setting my feet on the ground was the biggest improvement for me.

I'll take some time to practice more accurate landings. Thanks for the suggestion to let everyone down first. (might be hard with the tandems, though. They exit last and pull quite a bit higher than would be safe for me--I'm usually in the first or second group getting out)

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Not the tandem, but you should keep an eye on how they're flying to determine if they're going to be in your airspace or not (on each jump). Again, fly predictably in the pattern, be ok with landing on the edge of the field to give yourself as much free airspace as possible, and watch out for every canopy in the air even if you think they're going to do X and you don't have to worry about them.

Even a TI sometimes needs an emergency bathroom break and speeds up descent and landing. Too many beers and burritos sometimes hits your gut at 4pm... :))

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chuckakers


Why is that?


If people don't expect a 180, it's an unpredictable turn.
Also, it puts you facing directly into your biggest blind spot (behind you), and it might put you facing directly at the guy lower and behind you, that you didn't see and that isn't expecting you to pull a 180 into the pattern. The 'base' leg is very useful in making sure that my final is clear before I turn into it, since it's much easier to look left/right than it is to look behind.
It can be done safely? Yes. But we've all seen the consequences of people doing 180s in tight busy corners (see Eloy's streak of canopy collisions and near miss in the past couple of years), so I don't think it's generally the advice I'd personally give to people if they have problems fixing their square pattern.
"Eh. Just do a 180 when you're aligned with you target and fuck it, really". I know that's not what you said and that's even farther from what you meant, but it can be read that way and people have done that in the past.
I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

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Di0

***
Why is that?


If people don't expect a 180, it's an unpredictable turn.
Also, it puts you facing directly into your biggest blind spot (behind you), and it might put you facing directly at the guy lower and behind you, that you didn't see and that isn't expecting you to pull a 180 into the pattern. The 'base' leg is very useful in making sure that my final is clear before I turn into it, since it's much easier to look left/right than it is to look behind.
It can be done safely? Yes. But we've all seen the consequences of people doing 180s in tight busy corners (see Eloy's streak of canopy collisions and near miss in the past couple of years), so I don't think it's generally the advice I'd personally give to people if they have problems fixing their square pattern.
"Eh. Just do a 180 when you're aligned with you target and fuck it, really". I know that's not what you said and that's even farther from what you meant, but it can be read that way and people have done that in the past.

All good points. I should have included a couple statements - when I say a 180 I don't mean a quick switchback or toggle hook type turn. I mean a a smooth, easy turn that allows time to see the blind spot you referred to. As for predictability, I agree on that point as well.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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>If people don't expect a 180, it's an unpredictable turn.

Agreed. One thing that helps here is that he's got a fairly big canopy, so what would need to be a 180 under a small canopy could be two 90 degree turns in fairly quick succession (safer and easier to perform.)

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Lots of great advice in this thread. One additional suggestion: plan your pattern turn altitudes on the ground and then compare them to your actual turn altitudes in the pattern. E.g., if your plan is to be directly across from your landing spot at 800 feet, turn base at 600 feet and then final at 400 feet glance at your altimeter before each turn and see how that compares to your plan. You can then adjust your plan on the next jump based on this data. Even though the wind may be a little different it's still a good way to dial in your landing pattern skills.

A digital altimeter is helpful for this as it will be easier to read small differences in pattern altitude than on an analog altimeter. And, at the risk of stating the obvious, don't let this distract you from keeping your head on a swivel watching traffic. Have fun!
www.wci.nyc

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