Pilot-chute In Tow (its just the PITs)

[gowlerk 1,903]

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Most reserve deployments just have the bag sitting there waiting to fall out, except for any pocketing going on by the container, while the PC extracts and the bridle stretches out.

That is a design compromise. Perhaps it would be more correct to say that a throw out gives you a better staged deployment rather than calling a pull out an out of sequence deployment.

[Deyan 31]

pchapman

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The bridle should load up before the pin is extracted. Unless you’re using a spring loaded p/c.

Hmm, I was just about to say, all those reserve deployments would be considered out of sequence.... unless you somehow artificially exclude them because of a spring loaded PC, maybe because it "it is out of sequence but isn't out of sequence for that long so I won't count it because I want to say that pull-outs are bad, without saying that all our reserves are bad too".

You summed up pretty well. Spring loaded or not, doesn't make any difference. When you are belly to earth, pull out has less chance of hesitating because it's not in the burble, so that statement " it's out of sequence because it's not spring loaded" is pretty inaccurate.

The whole discussion is how to prevent PCIT. In my opinion, considering that specific malfunction, pull out is way better than throw out. Can you end up with a total if you can't find the pud? Absolutely! But anyone in his right mind will choose a total mal vs PCIT. Bill mentioned many people dying because they used pull outs in the 70's. But why did they die? Because in the 70's people were pulling at 2500' ,didn't have AAD's and didn't make as many jumps as the weekend warriors now.So when they end up at 2500' still in freefall and search for the pud for 10 seconds, well it's their last jump ever, right? In 2017 majority of jumper have AAD's and don't pull lower than 3000'. If you have as many jumpers using pull outs now as there were back then, I bet you, you won't have as many fatalities!
One more time....the discussion is not which deployment system is better. It's how to prevent PCIT.

Here's a list of all PCIT mals I've seen.

5X missrouted bridle (throw away)
2X bridle around body parts during unstable deployment (throw away)

How to avoid them:

Proper prejump gear check!
Pulling while stable belly to earth!

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[pchapman 261]

I'll also note that the puds of the 1970s were often poorly designed and not very secure. I had a Racer with a pullout in the early 90s, or early 80s vintage, and the pullout pud had a quite secure design with stiffeners and pocketed ends. Maybe not as secure as a modern freefly handle with tuck tab, but pretty decent. I did dislodge it once but even as a 50 jump newbie it wasn't hard to find the pud attachment and pull on it.

So if comparing designs, one would want to compare modern pullouts -- not 70s pullouts -- to modern BOC's.
And nowadays even if you had idiots losing track of time with a floating pud, most would be saved by their AADs.

(But I acknowledge that much of the reason for pullouts has disappeared over the years. Pullouts were sometimes more secure than leg strap throw outs. But nowadays with BOC throw outs with tuck tabs, those are quite secure. )

Gotta run; that's all for now.

[Bob_Church 7]

I think the biggest problem with the pullout back then was that when you got to the point of putting the bag into the container, arguably the most important phase of packing a rig with a pullout, you were already done. Putting what seemed like 10 pounds of flour into a 5 pound bag was a full time job in itself, so those all important corners didn't always get wedged in as well as they should have.

[gowlerk 1,903]

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Here's a list of all PCIT mals I've seen.

5X missrouted bridle (throw away)
2X bridle around body parts during unstable deployment (throw away)

I've seen both of those as well. The other cause I've seen is bridle half hitched around the p/c. Which is a different situation in that you may or may not get a deployment out of it. Is this even still a PCIT? I have used and owned both pull out and throw out over the years. I'm ok with either, but I made the switch to the now nearly standard throw out quite a while ago.

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Ken,

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the now nearly standard throw out

Actually, in today's world; it is 'the standard.'

We can argue which is best forever. However, if I were building a sport rig today, the throw-out would be the standard set-up. And I would consider not even offering a pull-out.

It would be like designing a car for North America & having the steering wheel on the right side with the left side as an option.

Jerry Baumchen

PS) IMO there is absolutely nothing wrong with a throw-out if the main canopy is properly sized for the container & it is properly packed.

[obelixtim 100]

Bob_Church

I think the biggest problem with the pullout back then was that when you got to the point of putting the bag into the container, arguably the most important phase of packing a rig with a pullout, you were already done. Putting what seemed like 10 pounds of flour into a 5 pound bag was a full time job in itself, so those all important corners didn't always get wedged in as well as they should have.

The biggest problem was the pud just being stuck to the bottom of the container with Velcro. Very easy to wipe it off on climbout, and when the Velcro was worn, the pud would fall off walking to the plane.

Saw a lot of floating puds where the drill was to roll onto your back, reach around and find the pin and pull that. Saw quite a few reserve rides as well.

Someone then thought of holding it in place with a rubber band, and things progressed from there.

Jumped a pull out for years with no problems, apart from one lazy dump, which gave me a short rush before the PC cleared.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[riggerrob 558]

Pulling the pin before the pilot-chute catches air is the normal sequence with pull-outs and ripcords

[Deyan 31]

riggerrob

Pulling the pin before the pilot-chute catches air is the normal sequence with pull-outs and ripcords

Exactly my point Rob! It was a rhetorical question!

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[riggerrob 558]

Yes.
Line-dump was a problem with early tandems from every manufacturer. Those heavy Dacron lines got dumped back into the main container as the huge drogue violently started lifting the D-bag.
Vector responded with wider elastics.
Strong responded with an extra Anti-Line-Slump flap - on the bag - held shut by bungee cords.
Racer, Parachutes de France added more locking stows with rubber bands.

Icon just announced that their earliest stow-less d-bags might dump lines pre-maturely, so they are offering free replacement bags with a more secure line-stow pocket.

[riggerrob 558]

......................

So pulling the pin before you get the PC out is considered "out of sequence deployment"?
----------------------------------------------------
Many reserves have two different sets of pins. The first pin(s) are steel pins swayed to the ripcord cable.
The second set are internal staging loops (usually on the kicker plate).
Heavy weight reserves :26' Lopo or tandem reserve) often have bungee staging loops to prevent the reserve bag from falling out until the pilot-chute is definitely pulling.

[riggerrob 558]

.... That is why a few of us used a pull out on our reserves.This presents another problem. AAD on pull out? Did not matter back then. That would take at least another weekend of pondering. Right now for the general public, the marketed throw out is the best thing going that they can buy. D-3411
------------------------------------

Releasing the closing loop is easy with a modern electronic AAD. The challenge is consistently launching the spring-less pilot-chute clear of the jumper. To understand this, look at antique pilot emergency parachutes that were designed before consistent spiral springs were available.
I have an antique ripcord rig that could easily be converted to pull-out and electronic AAD. It looks like a WW2 Japanese seat pack but was built more recently for a Nanjing CJ-6 military trainer. Bungee, pack-opening bands fling the un-sprung pilot-chute into the airstream.
The challenge to building a modern equivalent is selecting the correct Spandex or bungee cord and have it durable over the 20 year life of the container.

[keithbar 1]

Deyan

******I've never heard of anyone having PCIT with Pull-out. ]

I'd love to hear that story . O.K. Here it is 1982 on Saturday I had yet again broken a steering line on my ragged out heavy weight strato cloud. Didn't have a rig for Sunday. A friend who wasn't gonna jump the next day offered to let me borrow his rig. I jumped at the chance . Didn't even think about the small details like me being a foot taller and 100 lbs heavier than him. Next day I track , pull nothing. Look over my shoulder full bridle extension, fully inflated p.c. In tow. Hit a delta thinking it would leave. Looked between my legs still dancing p.c. Reached back slapped the sides of the container. Still didn't leave. Reached back feeling for the bag in the open container. Threw it out. By this time I was pretty much head down. Instant canopy. It could be argued that I had a container lock. And I did . but it caused a pilot chute in tow . I lived to jump another day so alls well that ends well.

i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am .

[gb1 2]

This is just the kind of response I was wanting to see from any of my posts. Someone who is thinking outside of the box to help develop new ideas of what could become the norm. I am sure there are several ways to make this happen with the pull out reserve (POR). ha ha It takes the ideas of many people, experienced or beginners to hit on the best changes. As far as the stretchy stuff remaining airworthy for 20 or more years, put it on the rigger to check and/or replace at intervals. By then a longer lasting replacement should have been developed. "keep it simple" is important. Don't rule out other ways to launch reserve with AAD. Secondary spring pilot chute, explosive charge (not really), jump spring under bag, etc. Rigger Rob, THUMBS UP!

[riggerrob 558]

Yes, we can learn by reviewing older designs. Sometimes those innovative ideas failed because the correct materials were not available yet.
For example, I never understood the function of pack-opening bands Until I packed a few rigs with un-sprung pilot-chutes. They used pack-opening-bands to pull back side-flaps, exposing the PC to wind. The best POBs tossed the soft PC away from the jumper.

By the same logic, old Security Safety-Chute PEPs had two springs. The first spring removed the closing loops while the second launched the pilot-chute.

I have packed secondary springs into ejection seats.
They had soft pilot chutes and the spring was completely separate, un-attached to the pilot-chute or bridle. The spring fell away after it pushed the pilot-chute out of the container.
The spring was a spiral wire wrapped in a cloth bag. The bag prevented lines, etc. from entangling between spring coils.

The next challenge - to reducing the weight and bulk of containers - is reducing the weight and bulk of pilot-chutes. Perhaps an automotive airbag?

[gb1 2]

I had a Switlik seat pack where the outside of the pack was actually the top of the rectangular pilot chute. It had pre bent spring strips mounted internaly. Don't think that is what we are after, but some of the old designs may have a place in some future designs.

[billvon 2,380]

>I am sure there are several ways to make this happen with the pull out reserve (POR).

With the way fabric bulk and reserve sizes are trending, it won't be long until you can pack a reserve PC in a weighted ballistic container and just throw the entire thing away from you. Sort of a poor man's BRS.