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fcajump

Non-Incident analysis

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My club had a student with a PIT go straight to reserve because he read on the internet that if there is no main out this is the correct choice. He ended up in a down plane when the main came out at 500ft and managed to cut away the main at a low altitude and walk away. Correct EP would have avoided this.


Outcome seems pretty good - better to have two out than none out.

Whether to cut away from a PC in tow is a big question. There's no one right answer, but your example shows the big tradeoff.

Straight to reserve:
-Main might deploy and downplane or entangle
-Faster

Cutaway first:
-Main is already cut away
-Risk of entanglement from cutaway main
-Takes longer
-Only one procedure to teach

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I have five high speed malfunctions. I couldn't cut-away on the first, student rig was wired shut, but I've cut away on all of the others including my fourth which was a total on a ripcord deployed main. I had been loaded the rig and when I said I didn't know how to pack it they gave me a booklet. I assume that I somehow jammed the spring loaded pilot chute between the main and reserve. I pulled the main ripcord handle and nothing. On pulling the reserve ripcord the main deployed and started wrapping around the reserve, leaving burn marks on both, but since I'd cut away the risers were unwinding and according to people on the ground the canopies unwound from each other and the main was flung away. But that would have been impossible if I had't pulled the R2s first. I was knocked out by opening shock and didn't even know the main had deployed, by the time I woke up it would have been too late.
So, as people say, there are no guarantees. Train until you do things automatically then stick to your script.

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ShotterMG

The student did indeed make the correct choice. You and your club should rethink your EP's and learn from this guy.



We have standardised training for students in SA.
It is ALWAYS full EP, pulling both handels in the correct order. This removes the need for an inexperienced jumper to evaluate a high speed mal.

Your comment now suggests that cutting away a PIT is incorrect. I feel differently. Unless I have nothing out i am going to cut away first

The reason i bolded my original comment is because it is irresponsible to tell student to deviate from their training. This is something they need to discuss with an instructor in person. What if the student had ridden the down plane into the ground or the main had deployed a bit lower so they did not have time to realise what was happening. In this situation cutting away the main first would have been correct.

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DHemer

***The student did indeed make the correct choice. You and your club should rethink your EP's and learn from this guy.



We have standardised training for students in SA.
It is ALWAYS full EP, pulling both handels in the correct order. This removes the need for an inexperienced jumper to evaluate a high speed mal.

Your comment now suggests that cutting away a PIT is incorrect. I feel differently. Unless I have nothing out i am going to cut away first

The reason i bolded my original comment is because it is irresponsible to tell student to deviate from their training. This is something they need to discuss with an instructor in person. What if the student had ridden the down plane into the ground or the main had deployed a bit lower so they did not have time to realise what was happening. In this situation cutting away the main first would have been correct.

First job is to stop the FF. He did that. He is alive.

And here is a "what if". Remember this is a student.

What if he had a problem locating the cutaway handle?

He could spend the rest of his life focussing on that, while the panic builds up in a desperate attempt to cutaway first. Especially if his AAD didn't fire for whatever reason.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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Backing Gowlerk on AADs.
I have only seen a single AAD mid-fire at 7,000'. It was an analog FXC 8000 just back from a chamber test.
All the FXC "mis-fires" have occurred below 2,000'.
Most of the electronic AAD cutters - that I have replaced - fired below 1,000'.

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gowlerk

Before AADs were in common use fatalities involving people cutting away then failing to pull the other handle, or waiting too long before remembering were fairly common. This scenario accounts for the largest proportion of AAD saves.


--------------------------------------------------------------------

Backing Gowlerk again.
Before electronic AADs became fashionable, about 1/3 of fatality reports were "low pull or no pull." This overlapped with "cutaway but pulled the reserve ripcord too low or no reserve ripcord pull."

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Lack of continuing education is a 3-fold problem: complacent skydivers, busy instructors and complacent DZOs.
Arrogant skydivers learned everything they know by age 20 and please do waste their time telling them anything new. They have the same wife, same haircut, same taste in music, same taste in beer, same job at the mill, etc. They even have thier same old muscle-car sitting on blocks in the backyard because they just want to re-live the best year of thier life another 50 times.
Secondary is thier fear of embarrassment if they fumble an EP review in front of thier friends.

Busy instructors might see a junior jumper packing incorrectly and want to offer advice, but they already have another student and the plane is taxiing in ...... After 14 jumps - in the hot sun - they are tired and hungry and thirsty and want to get to bed early because tommorow will be equally busy.

Finally, overly-ambitious DZOs want to keep planes hot-loading when the sun shines. They know that refresher training reduces the number of jump tickets sold today.

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I have to agree with you. First job is to stop the freefall. In 25 years of the sport I have lost a lot of friends who cutaway but never pulled the reserve handle for whatever reason.

Far more people in my jumping career have gone in with too little out rather than too much.

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DHemer

***The student did indeed make the correct choice. You and your club should rethink your EP's and learn from this guy.



We have standardised training for students in SA.
It is ALWAYS full EP, pulling both handels in the correct order. This removes the need for an inexperienced jumper to evaluate a high speed mal.

Your comment now suggests that cutting away a PIT is incorrect. I feel differently. Unless I have nothing out i am going to cut away first

The reason i bolded my original comment is because it is irresponsible to tell student to deviate from their training. This is something they need to discuss with an instructor in person. What if the student had ridden the down plane into the ground or the main had deployed a bit lower so they did not have time to realise what was happening. In this situation cutting away the main first would have been correct.

As an aside, what training did this guy get for a 2 out situation? And what is the standardised training for 2 outs in SA?

I realise he might not have had a lot of time to assess and deal with a 2 out.

But that might be the issue, more than pulling silver.

A 2 out doesn't automatically downplane.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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Something out vs nothing...

Two related topics are intermingling here and I want to make sure that (especially our younger jumpers) understand the difference.

------------NoPull---------------
THIS original discussion was on a jumper that could not find the handle. This is a NOTHING OUT high speed mal. In this case, the cutaway handle will do NOTHING except take time. (a slim case could be made that it takes less time than deciding what to do, but that gets eaten up by the further hesitation of waiting for the risers to clear, which they never will...) It also takes away a later (last ditch) option should there be a malfunction of your reserve (think non-deployment, you could try the main again, or adding more fabric if the reserve is a non-landable mess). These options are gone if you have already cutaway.
-----------------/NoPull-------------

----------------PIT------------------
A PIT (pilot chute in tow) is a different animal... it is neither a malfunctioned main overhead, nor is it a sealed/static/immobile main container safely out of the way. It is a main canopy poised waiting to cause trouble at any moment.

It may deploy when you:
- reach for handles (been there... done that),
- pull the reserve, releasing tray pressure,
- after the reserve is out, at some random time prior to landing.

And each of these have the possibility of the main being front, reserve being front, both deploying/wrapping at the same time.

Does it clear better with the main risers still attached or released... both have happened, and both have not cleared.

This is why training methods vary and why even USPA leaves it as an unresolved, two solution item in their training. Both can be the right answer, both can kill you.

Unfortunately, this leaves us in the position of saying 'he lived, so he made the right choice, but that guy didn't live, so he made the wrong choice'... even when they might have both done the same thing.

It does mean we REALLY need to avoid PIT.
--------------/PIT--------------------

We also really need to avoid no pulls... which returns us to THIS jump's analysis. (and other thread drift discussions ;-)

JW
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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I am not an instructor but from the top of my head, been a while since I refreshed the student training.

Biplane - fly the front canopy with small control inputs to the rear risers. leave brakes stowed. PLF for landing, no flare

Side by side - leave brakes stowed, steer with rear risers from outer canopy to keep canopies together, pulling an outer riser could induce a down plane. PLF for landing, no flare

Down plane - I think the training is now to cut away. When I was a student it was to steer the canopies towards each other to get back to a side by side. No improvement after 5 seconds then cutaway.

I agree a 2 out does automatically downplane. My feeling is that it is normally for some asymmetric canopy input that causes this and is usually avoidable

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