is it safe to downsize from 230 to 190 ???

[shaun1010 0]

hey :)
im a newly qualified jumper , 30 jumps total ,
started jumping on a 270 , after 1 jump the instructor downsized me to 250 , i stayed on 250 until jump 20 , and now have 9-10 stand up landings on a 230
i have now bought my own rig its an old javelin with a pd190 f111 main

is it safe to downsize 40sqft in one go or should i do some jumps on a hired 210 first ???

thanks shaun

[Dutchboy 0]

I suspect you already know the answer to this question. What's the cost of renting a 210 for a couple jumps? How does that compare to cost of doctor visit follow a rough landing?

[shaun1010 0]

well i am English so health care is free :D ...just kidding ..point taken
the reason i asked is the swap from 270 to 250 and from 250 to 230 felt like no change at all

and tbh i was planning on doing a few on a 210 but had a niggling feeling that i might be wasting my money so i thought id get advise

[gowlerk 2,069]

It depends a lot on how worn out that PD 190 is. Depending how much you weigh of course. After a few hundred jumps or so old PD 9 cells start to open very slowly and flare very poorly. When they are newish they are pretty good for late 80s technology.

[CrashProne 4]

The jump from 230 to 190 may or may not be a dramatic one for you, based on too many factors to list. However, add in the change from one parachute type to another, and it's starting to add up to a LARGE change in performance. I'd recommend you consider that before making a decision.


PERSONALLY, I feel the safest course would be to use the provided rental gear until comfortable on a 190 before jumping your "new" gear (which, judging from your description, isn't very "new" at all).

[shaun1010 0]

im just over 85kg with my rig on ,after weighing myself with the rig when i bought it a couple of months ago we worked out my wing loading was 0.99

and no idea how many jumps its got (still need my rigger to check it before i use it )
it came free with the container but is meant to be in a good condition

[shaun1010 0]

il rent for a while longer thanks for the advice and info :)

[danornan 74]

By asking the question, I think you already know the answer. This is not the place for that answer though. Ask your instructor..

Dano

[ufk22 32]

It’s a lot more complicated than size. A PD 190 is probably 20 years old.
When it was in common use, almost no one jumped 1:1. It is now an earth seeking missile.
I started on gutter gear like that, but at about 1.5. Landings will be an adventure.
You don’t say what canopy you have your stand ups on, but chances it has a Zp top skin at the very least. Landing old F111 canopies is very different. Much easier to stall if you flare early, much easier to pile in if you flare late.
If you are considering jumping it, get it inspected.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[gowlerk 2,069]

In the last few years at our small dz we've had two people use two different PD 9 cell canopies as transition/learning canopies. Both were successful and moved on. Both were small females weighing less than 140 lbs.

Consult the old timers on your DZ. They will know if it is good for you.

[shaun1010 0]

no i did not know for sure the answer already or i would not have asked,
and this is defiantly a good place for info my local dz has 5-6 instructors i wonder how many are here on dropzone

ive found out something about my canopy i did not know and ive gotten some good advise

when the season starts i plan to ask my dz but it helps to get info from everywhere

thanks everyone who commented , il take the advise on bored , i had not really considered the swap from zp to f111 side of things , il get used to a 190 before making the swap :)

[danornan 74]

My point was that by asking the question, you are not sure, and if you are not sure, the answer is generally no....

When you are ready, you will know and have more confidence in your decision.

By the way, the PD will be a lot easier to pack...but the landing will not be as predictable as the ones you are used to. F111 is more porous and it is a lot older and the lines, unless recently replaced will most likely be out of true.

Again, the one to ask about a canopy downsizing question, with your experience, is your instructor. If you had several, ask them all.

Dano

[pchapman 274]

shaun1010

, i had not really considered the swap from zp to f111 side of things , il get used to a 190 before making the swap :)

That follows common recommendations that have been around a long time: If you are changing to a canopy of quite different characteristics than you are used to, then do things in two stages -- Downsize on the style of canopy you know, and only when you are used to that size, then change the style of the canopy.

[sammielu 3]

All good advice on here.
Get your main inspected by a rigger before you jump it. The only F111 old PD canopies around here are considered garbage (We use them for intentional cutaways) - so I recommend you be cautious with yours. F111 wears with age, not just use (jump numbers).

Separate from that is the downsizing question. If you have to ask because you don't know, the safe answer is always no in skydiving.

Search on here for downsizing checklists, there are lots of skills to master and ways to add speed before you need to downsize.

Personally, I bought my next canopy (10sf smaller) 2 seasons and 1000 jumps ago and still have not hooked it up - because I have no reason to do so. Any canopy can be flown fast and any canopy can swoop with the right skill, so why do yuou need less life saving material above your head at thus point?

[keithbar 1]

shaun1010

il rent for a while longer thanks for the advice and info :)

pssst hey. Mage in my most offensive Hispanic voice I sell you a good 230 0p ,fresh reline, complete rig 249 sg ft reserve new old stock. Only a couple or 3 repack. She’s tighter than my sister senjior h. But it’s a big boy rig what size human we talking here .?

i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am .

[pchapman 274]

sammielu

F111 wears with age, not just use (jump numbers).

I'll have to take issue with that. I don't think it really wears with age any more than ZP; only very small strength loss per decade if stored well.

But you'd be right in the sense that it is rarer and rarer to find an F-111 style canopy around, and one that isn't worn out. But occasionally there's a decent one of decent size around. A different flare but jumpable.

[shaun1010 0]

keithbar

***il rent for a while longer thanks for the advice and info :)

pssst hey. Mage in my most offensive Hispanic voice I sell you a good 230 0p ,fresh reline, complete rig 249 sg ft reserve new old stock. Only a couple or 3 repack. She’s tighter than my sister senjior h. But it’s a big boy rig what size human we talking here .?

lol i'm ok :D ,,thanks though :)

don't even think a 230 would fit my javelin its a j3


if i can save enough penny's il get a newer main , getting turned off the idea of even using it now lol il see what mr rigger says

and thanks again everyone for the advise :)
its appreciated

[gowlerk 2,069]

Quote

don't even think a 230 would fit my javelin its a j3

OK, I'm going to open a large can of worms here. How big is the reserve in your Javelin J3? You are wondering if a 190 is appropriate for you as a main. I'll bet your back up plan is quite a bit smaller......

[shaun1010 0]

gowlerk

Quote

don't even think a 230 would fit my javelin its a j3

OK, I'm going to open a large can of worms here. How big is the reserve in your Javelin J3? You are wondering if a 190 is appropriate for you as a main. I'll bet your back up plan is quite a bit smaller......

nothing is packed in it at the mo ,,,im confused about this subject the reserve that was in it while the last guy owned it was a raven II of the top of my head i think its 218 or close i cant remember
but sunpath says it can only take a 160-170 reserve on the website so im thinking the ravenII is too big , its 29yo anyways so im not using it , just saying about the size

i also have a swift plus (175 i think ) thats 25 yo lol still not keen on that ether tho , only two live uses but id be much more happy with a younger one

[gowlerk 2,069]

First, get over the idea that there is an age limit on reserves. A Raven II with Spectra lines is a bit of a tight fit in a J3 but if there was one in there before it will likely still fit another one. I would consider it a good choice for you. An older Tempo 210 would work as well. The Swift Plus is 175 and packs about the same as the other two.

Of the more modern reserves a PDR176 is about as big as you could fit. They pack larger than Ravens or Tempos. You could go one size larger with a low bulk reserve. I'm guessing you are on a budget if you are using a container that came with an older PD 9 cell.

At your weight I would not be afraid to use a Raven II or a Tempo 210. There is nothing wrong with older nylon if your rigger inspects it and says it's airworthy. I pack dozens of Tempos and Ravens every year. They work just fine.

And yes, Raven II are 218 (although there are said to be differences in how that is measured) They pack smaller than PDRs and other newer canopies. The Javelin sizing chart does not consider them because they are no longer in production.

[tbrown 26]

gowlerk

It depends a lot on how worn out that PD 190 is. Depending how much you weigh of course. After a few hundred jumps or so old PD 9 cells start to open very slowly and flare very poorly. When they are newish they are pretty good for late 80s technology.

Did you have this canopy inspected, or even talk to a rigger before you bought it ? I'm really tired of hearing about older jumpers selling crap from yesteryear to newbies. Like F-111 mains and Micro-Raven reserves.

I do know a few jumpers who still jump old F-111 canopies. But they have a lot of experience and know what they're doing. You don't. There is simply no reason on earth for you to buy anything but a ZP canopy. There are tons of good ones on the used market. I think you've been screwed by someone who knew exactly what he was doing.

As for size, go easy and put some jumps on a 210. THEN, a 190 size ZP canopy should do you just fine. ZP fabric really does make a huge difference.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[billvon 2,676]

>First, get over the idea that there is an age limit on reserves.

There effectively is one. Many riggers won't pack reserves that are over 20 years old, resulting in a de facto age limit.

(Not interested in a debate on whether or not that's a good idea; for the purposes of this thread, it's a good thing to keep in mind.)

[shaun1010 0]

gowlerk

First, get over the idea that there is an age limit on reserves. A Raven II with Spectra lines is a bit of a tight fit in a J3 but if there was one in there before it will likely still fit another one. I would consider it a good choice for you. An older Tempo 210 would work as well. The Swift Plus is 175 and packs about the same as the other two.

Of the more modern reserves a PDR176 is about as big as you could fit. They pack larger than Ravens or Tempos. You could go one size larger with a low bulk reserve. I'm guessing you are on a budget if you are using a container that came with an older PD 9 cell.

At your weight I would not be afraid to use a Raven II or a Tempo 210. There is nothing wrong with older nylon if your rigger inspects it and says it's airworthy. I pack dozens of Tempos and Ravens every year. They work just fine.

And yes, Raven II are 218 (although there are said to be differences in how that is measured) They pack smaller than PDRs and other newer canopies. The Javelin sizing chart does not consider them because they are no longer in production.

i know older reserves are ok as long as they have been checked but im 28 just seems wrong to make my last option one that's older than me :P

and ok thanks for explaining , i was wondering how a 218 fit inside

and yeah that's what ive been keeping my eye out for a pdr176
don't mind old just looking for something younger than me lol

and yeah im on a budget

but i only bought the kit for the container/harness it was 300gbp , and the guy said' fu%k it you can have the lot' and gave me the main and reserve free , saying there perfectly good he was using them before he bought his new rig ,

he was a kinda new jumper , and no i never got it inspected but i was advised before buying it to get a 190
but i was hunting for ages for a harness that fit my 6.3 skinny self and held a 190 so i pounced on this javelin it fits perfect

[shaun1010 0]

i did get a rigger to look at the harness for me , was not a full inspection but i looked it over and a few instructors gave the thumbs up regarding harness size too

any gear i use will be fully inspected before using but i did not with the main/reserve before buying as it was free

[wolfriverjoe 1,445]

shaun1010

hey :)
im a newly qualified jumper , 30 jumps total ,
started jumping on a 270 , after 1 jump the instructor downsized me to 250 , i stayed on 250 until jump 20 , and now have 9-10 stand up landings on a 230
i have now bought my own rig its an old javelin with a pd190 f111 main

is it safe to downsize 40sqft in one go or should i do some jumps on a hired 210 first ???

thanks shaun

First off, make sure you read the sticky about "taking advice" from here.

You don't know any of us, and taking advice from strangers on the internet, about stuff that is a matter of life and death, is not always a good move.

Second off, a PD 190 is not a good canopy for your skill level. Period. Likely ragged out, didn't fly all that great when new. I understand it came with the container, but you should really consider retiring it. They make nice indoor car covers.

To answer the question in the title (not exactly the question you are asking):

Maybe. A nice, gentle, forgiving 190, loaded at 1:1 may not be a bad choice for you.

How are your landings? How is your accuracy? How are your general canopy flight skills?
I highly doubt you've competed the entire downsizing checklist Billvon has on here (look in the "safety articles"), but if your skills are reasonably solid, you can likely be reasonably safe on a 190.

I went from 288 Mantas (variety of them, some new, some ragged out pretty bad) to a Triathlon 190. loaded almost exactly at 1:1, somewhere under 50 jumps.
My canopy skills were good (for my jump numbers), I had some serious discussions with a variety of instructors at my DZ, had a good understanding of what I was getting into and chose a 'good' day (moderate but steady winds) to fly it the first time.
I pulled fairly high and went through a 'checklist' of maneuvers before getting low enough to enter the pattern.
Flares and stalls, turns of different toggle input, slow flight and dives (single front riser diving turns and double front riser straight dives).

And it went fine. It took 10 or 15 jumps to get more or less 'dialed in' with it, but I had no real issues, no close calls, no reason to regret or second guess my choice.

It certainly wouldn't hurt to do a few (or more) jumps on an intermediate sized canopy, but that wasn't an option for me.

Standard disclaimer: Not an instructor, didn't even stay in a Holiday Inn last night,use at own risk, close cover before striking, contains flammable gas under pressure.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo