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fcajump

What is "Low" for a planned pull altitude (not you, but an "other" experienced jumper)

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Yes... I know, it can depend on many things... but when you hear that someone is going to pull at X,000', what makes you uncomfortable??

Lets say, you hear the plans of an:
experienced/current jumper
solo to 4way (not big-way/crowded area)
planning to be slowed on his belly at pull time
unknown main canopy

*yes, I know the metric conversion is not exact, but close enough for pull time.

Background for the question:
Over the last (almost) 30 years, I've watched the deployment altitudes (and attitudes) go up from everyone deploying around 2,000' to a wide variety now. This has happened as AAD's became more common, some canopies were designed for soft openings (my Spectre) and others are known to burn a lot of altitude if they open in a turn. Recent reserve issues have also prompted the move of BSR minimums up to 2,500' in the USA. (So, some good reasons for the shift.)

But I also know some folks that still jump traditional design canopies (Parafoil, Raven, etc...) that have always pulled at 2,000' and don't feel the need to change. (one still uses a pair of very well maintained Sweethogs... AAD only added to appease the local DZO)

Recently it was asserted that a jumper "routinely pulled low", and it took me back to when I started... that meant the person in question was often pulling below 1,800'... As I doubt that's what is meant now it got me thinking what was meant by that person making that comment today.

So, I am curious what the consensus is on what the phrase "routinely pulling low" means now...

JW

PS - This is not an argument for returning to 2000' deployments. You should always plan a safe deployment altitude, based on your skill, currency, main deployment behavior, reserve, AAD settings, exit location, landscape, type of jump, number of other jumpers in the formation, number of jumpers in the air, DZ policies and landing patterns and acceptable safety margin. (and I'm sure I missed a few there too)
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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Anything below 3,000'.

Yes, you can do it and will almost certainly be fine in regards to your deployment, but for me it's a deconfliction question. I think that by 3k almost everyone else on the jump will be under canopy (or in deployment) and I'm not a fan of mixing canopy flight and freefall.

For the same rationale I'd feel just as uneasy if someone said 'over 4'500'

There's that area between about 3 and 4k where everyone is transitioning from freefall to canopy flight. Outside that envelope I think that as many people as possible should be in the same flight state.

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Usually I want to be open before I hit the ground.








I've only had to take it down to 2,500 twice and I wasn't to happy about it but I am still a new jumper. I would consider anything below 2000 low for myself but for others it depends on what I know about them. If it's a student, 2500 is low but if its an 80+ year old man I know that has been in the sport for 60 years I wouldn't flinch if he blew through 2000.

Edit: missed the "planned" part. My normal planned is 3500

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Two conversations stand out in my mind over the years...

First - I was questioned as to my state of mind when, with a 'C' license I liked to put myself in the stack just prior to the tandems such that I could open at 4-5k' and play under canopy (with full awareness/coordination with everyone else's plans). They were concerned as I was supposed to be opening at 2k since I had a 'C' license... so what's wrong with me that I'm planning to open high??

Second was an Otter load 20+ years later, filled with about the same level experience as was the case above... wanted to open 3-4 and found myself at the low-end of the group... plans were from 2,500 to 8k' with no tandems nor CReW.

My how times have changed.

JW
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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husslr187

Usually I want to be open before I hit the ground.


:Dyea... me too... good plan.

husslr187


I've only had to take it down to 2,500 twice and I wasn't to happy about it but I am still a new jumper. I would consider anything below 2000 low for myself but for others it depends on what I know about them. If it's a student, 2500 is low but if its an 80+ year old man I know that has been in the sport for 60 years I wouldn't flinch if he blew through 2000.


Keep in mind IIRC that the BSR minimum's in the USA are 2,500' for any experience level.

Actually, I'm also starting to think that many (eventually 'all') of those who grew up pulling at 2,000' (unless they hummed it down to get a little more clearance) need to bump up their plans to a higher altitude simply because the 80+ y.o. man you mention still does not have the reflexes or strength that they had at 50/40/30...

JW

PS - Thanks for the reply... as I said, I'm curious what people think... I don't think there is one good final answer to this question.

PPS - BTW - I dumped at 1600' once... fortunately it was before I got my Spectre... don't want to do that again until the plane's on fire... and then it'll be my reserve.
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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3,000 for me as well, break at 4,500 for that 4-way scenario. My AAD is set to fire between 990 and 1,250 ft, so as a fellow Spectre user, I'd have to start reaching for the reserve handle if I find myself free falling through 2,000 ft.

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A "D" licensed jumper should be able to plan to deploy at 2500' without it bothering people. So I said 2000' would be an uncomfortable plan, in response to your specific question.

Under US rules, anyone planning under 2500' should be questioned. So <2500' would be the best answer, but not in the list.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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I said under 2000'. Not because I pull there, but because I think that for nearly any modern gear anything below that takes special preparation. I pack for a quick opening, so while 2000' doesn't really bother me, I generally pull about 3000', and since I upsized recently, am one of the last to land.

2500' is a good lower end for BSR now I think. But just as a safe speed might be above the speed limit, I think a safe opening can be planned down to about 2000'. Margin of error is always nice.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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I think the 2500 ft rule of the new BSRs is probably a good thing.

No, I know its a good thing.

That said, I didn't really bat an eye when I would hear "OK, we're gonna break at 3500, pull between 2500 and 2000.." Crikey, my logbook is rife with jumps that *started* pulling a 4 way off the step at 3.5. (and we all went away within 500 ft and were in the saddle by 2.5) and none of that really freaked me or anybody else out. (mid 1990s, C-182s, low ceiling days..gotta hone that 4-way exit technique!)

I think back to the AFF course, where we're leaving the "student" around 3500 ft and you have to gain 200 ft of separation and deploy by 2K. There were a *couple* times when, yes, the pin was out of my container by 2K, but my deployment didn't finish until 1600 ft. Extra sketchy, for sure, and at least once I looked over my shoulder to be sure my Cypres didn't decide to randomly make things more complicated.

Today? No, I'm glad we've built in 500ft more of buffer. But if someone said "Yeah, I had traffic at break off and went a little low, pulled at 2.3.." I wouldn't be like "Holy jesus, do you @#$% want to die?"

Now, sub 2000 ft pulls? Screw that and anybody who thinks thats even remotely safe. *especially* with today's soft opening snivel rides.

(My Sabre I hasn't let me down yet...)
NIN
D-19617, AFF-I '19

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I had sub 2000 ft exits. It is an OK altitude to exit, provided you are ready for it.

It all depends on the plan.

If I planned to pull at 3500 and end pulling at 2500, I have screwed up and ended low. If I plan to open at 2500 and open at 2500, I know where I am going, and the altitude is decent.
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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I voted 2500 ft. Not because I don't think you can't safely pull or even exit lower, but because the question is what would make me uncomfortable. If I don't know the jumper well and I hear that they are planning to pull at 2500 I would question that because I don't see any reason to pull that low on a 4-way. Just because you can do something doesn't always mean that it is a good idea. There are few things more useless than altitude above you.
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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IMO this is very equipment-dependent, mostly regarding canopy choice, but bleeding over into disciplines as well (Wingsuits, Camera Flyers, etc.).

I did a demo in 1993 UK where we consciously exited at 1800 FT AGL over a major city because of weather. At that point I had several hundred exits from 2000 FT on the same type of canopy (200+ jumps "dialed in" on my current canopy), many of which were live demos as well. It was a calculated risk and successful despite being very busy once I was open. I did not at that point become emboldened by the experience and lower my own standard pull altitude which was 2500 FT at the time.

When I began jumping camera I was still jumping a canopy tolerant of lowering deployment altitudes, but I raised my own to 3000 FT for ALL jumps because I occasionally had to sort out my big camera wing getting in the way of my hackey BOC.

I can definitely understand newer jumpers who are accustomed to a deployment altitude of no lower than 3500 FT say being uncomfortable with those who still take it down to the lowest "legal" limit. But - there is training value there if - with the right gear - one can experience an intentional deployment altitude much lower than they are used to . . . one day you may have to (emergency exit) and it will be far easier than if it is the first time.

My $0.02.
Arrive Safely

John

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fcajump

Keep in mind IIRC that the BSR minimum's in the USA are 2,500' for any experience level.



To refresh your memory....

H. Minimum opening altitudes
Minimum container opening altitudes above the ground
for skydivers are:
1. Tandem jumps–4,500 feet AGL [E]
2. All students and A-license holders–3,000 feet AGL [E]
3. B-license holders–2,500 feet AGL [E]
4. C- and D-license holders–2,500 feet AGL (S)
(waiverable to no lower than 2,000 feet AGL)

BTW, my answer to the poll is "BSR's".
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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That's for sure with the old altitudes in the AFF course!

I would feel uncomfortable with many of the new young jumpers pulling lower, but when I started we broke 4 ways at 3k and 8 ways at 3500 (have lots of logbook entries like that).

And while I have not pulled that low on a regular basis in many years, pulling lower happens periodically - AFF students pulled low, getting separation on a bigger way.. And if someone is older when this was common, and has an appropriate canopy, its not that big a deal for me.

I am good with raising the minimum pull altitude to 2500k, I think it improves safety for sure and most kids are pulling way above that by now. And if i am ever on a jump where I think I might be opening on the lower end of things, I jump one of my rigs with a faster opening canopy. When I am wearing my giant camera helmet pulling high after a tandem, I wear my 1500 ft sniveler. But I would never choose that canopy on a 20 way. And I mostly jump Triathlons which are very predictable openings.

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I voted 2500' as being 'low' with unknown main canopy. These canopies that have to be a streamer for 1000' before they open, or where line twist is a high speed malfunction (when it used to not be a malfunction at all!) means anything lower than 3000' is probably to low for them.

For my Sabre and Triathlons 2000' sub terminal and 2500' terminal is fine. And in a 'beat the rain and clouds' 182 load that didn't work, I got out at 2000' and told the under 400 jump newbies in the plane to stay were they were.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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I'll chime in with Richmond Indiana " the boogie " had a c130 Hercules there. Along with a French helicopter . Crappy weather low clouds they were giving away helicopter jumps for one ticket. Altitude you get what you get Four of us went up literally the rotor blades were scrubbing in the clouds at 1850 my buddy left and hop and pop I took a three . We landed I couldn't find the fourth canopy. I was really worried he had bounced until the chopper landed and he got out . 😉
i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am .


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>I had sub 2000 ft exits. It is an OK altitude to exit, provided you are ready for it.

Agreed.

It should be noted, however, that pulling at 2000 feet after exiting is very different than pulling at 2000 feet at the end of a freefall. In general the 2000 foot clear and pull is a _lot_ safer.

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1100 jumps: My normal deployment altitude is 3,000 feet. Low for me is 2,500. Below 2,000, I go for my reserve only (haven't had to yet, but that's my plan, based on not wanting to snivel through an AAD fire and having two-out).

If a licensed jumper on the plane is planning on opening high (say above 4,000 feet) I will often ask they go with coaching/AFF students, or take the center of a formation. My concern that people don't start looking down until breakout, and with breakoffs typically between 4500 and 5000, people aren't looking down until then or shortly thereafter.

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>It should be noted, however, that pulling at 2000 feet after exiting is very different than pulling at 2000 feet at >the end of a freefall. In general the 2000 foot clear and pull is a _lot_ safer.

Unless you have one of those Bungee Cord pilot chutes...(nobody is using those anymore I hope!)...and you are on one of those Adam Callahan "my altimeter says 2K" ;);) Otay crummy day hop and pops....and you tow your pilot chute for about 700 ft until you reach operating speed for that bungee....

(Nah, I wasn't on that load either..:)

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wmw999

I said under 2000'. Not because I pull there, but because I think that for nearly any modern gear anything below that takes special preparation. I pack for a quick opening, so while 2000' doesn't really bother me, I generally pull about 3000', and since I upsized recently, am one of the last to land.

2500' is a good lower end for BSR now I think. But just as a safe speed might be above the speed limit, I think a safe opening can be planned down to about 2000'. Margin of error is always nice.

Wendy P.



Wendy,
I never downsized (being not young), don't like to spiral down, and I don't like to be landing with the tandems. So I don't like to pull high either. I had worked down to under 3000 when the BSR was changed to 2500, so that is my "low".
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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Specific language is really important in discussing pull altitude. BSRs specify "container opening altitude", even better, the UPT Strong manual specifies canopy open altitude.

My first question to anyone when they start talking about pull altitude is to ask them to talk me through their pull procedure (and then how they "know" they pulled at x altitude and were open by y altitude). Pull altitude is different than brake off, track, stop the track, wave off... and not everyone includes that information in their plan. Pulling at 3k? Cool. Brake off from an attempt at head down for a new free flier at 4k? You probably didn't pull at 3k dummy, especially if you were the only one who couldn't make it back to the landing area.

My personal opinion is that pull altitude is timed for group jumps (i.e. break off at 4500, turn, track 5 sec, wave, reach, pull in another 5 sec so estimated pull altitude is 3500' with reinforcement by checking altimeter during reach/pull, and acknowledging that actual pull/open data only comes from technology like a flysight, not your memory of which way the needle on your altimeter was pointed)... and then we usually talk about altitude loss per second and how many seconds someone wants to have to save their life when shit happens.

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rmarshall234

Unless you have one of those Bungee Cord pilot chutes...(nobody is using those anymore I hope!)...and you are on one of those Adam Callahan "my altimeter says 2K" ;);) Otay crummy day hop and pops....and you tow your pilot chute for about 700 ft until you reach operating speed for that bungee....



About 20 years ago at my DZ's Casa Boogie it was too OVC to put up full altitude loads. The Casa pilot (also a jumper) and I decided we should at least put up a couple hop-and-pop loads.

I stepped off the 182 right after he did at a shade over 2000 and immediately threw my PC.

"Hmmm, thats odd," I thought, "it doesn't feel like anything is happening back there.."

Looked over my shoulder to see my collapsed bungee pilot chute dancing in my burble.

"awww, shit.."

Just then, it caught air and I opened. Geez. I'm not sure, but I think I wasn't in the saddle until 1600 ft.

I bought a Cazer kill-line collapsible immediately thereafter.
NIN
D-19617, AFF-I '19

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>Looked over my shoulder to see my collapsed bungee pilot chute dancing in my burble.

On Buzz's 33rd birthday he did 33 hop and pops on the airport to celebrate. I went up with him a few times. On every single jump I'd see that - his PC would come out, inflate for a split second, deflate, inflate again, deflate, then finally pull the pin. Couldn't get him to switch out that bungee PC even after all that; he used it for years afterwards.

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