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IamAdam

Any SAFE full-face helmets out there?

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I just finished my AFP, and the first piece of gear I intend to buy is a helmet. I love all the full-face options out there for comfort and face protection, but I notice most of them are just a basic shell with a comfort liner, with no impact-absorbing Styrofoam inside like all my other helmets (bicycle, ski, motorcycle). What gives? Would that make them too draggy?

I'm thinking of just jumping my ski helmet until I find a full face, but I'm not seeing much out there. Any suggestions for a full-face helmet with an actual crush-space?


Do you see a reason to not use this Giro Seam ski helmet in the mean time?

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Well, the styrofoam itself weighs next to nothing, although it does make the helmet a little bigger. Still, a full-face visor weighs a lot more than goggles and people make that tradeoff. I'd like to trade a few ounces (my Giro Seam is under a pound) for some actual impact protection. It doesn't have to be DOT or SNELL rated- just has to have a styrofoam crush-zone, if anything is out there.

In the mean time, any reasons not to use the ski helmet?

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>In the mean time, any reasons not to use the ski helmet?

I'd need someone more experienced to weigh in on this, but maybe the possibility of entanglement with the goggle strap on the back, the helmet cupping a lot of air because it might not be as form-fitting as a skydiving helmet, or any difficulty getting rid of it quickly should you need to in the air for whatever reason?

Incidentally, I'm new to full-face helmets: is there ever an issue with getting into a sticky spot and needing to get them off quickly? And if so, what the best procedure for that is?

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IamAdam


In the mean time, any reasons not to use the ski helmet?



Depends on the helmet. It shouldn't have protrusions or snag points. Other than that, I think it it reasonable.

The only rated full-face helmet I know of (for skydiving) is the one the skyhelmet guys are doing (https://www.facebook.com/Skyhelmets-210211255784088/, http://www.skyhelmets.de/), but I don't know which certification they have. I guess one of the basic ones. The padding definitely looks more protecting than the padding on any other skydiving fullface helmet I've seen (G2/G3, Z1, Kiss, Phantom). To what degree, I can't really tell.

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I had a Freezr (by Paratec) for awhile; it seemed to have more padding, but i didn't have technical details on it. One thing you can do is buy a foam kit from Oregon Aero (they make foam kits for some open-face helmets), and try your hand at replacing the foam in a ragged-out helmet. I did that with my Oxygn, and am reasonably happy with the result. I would suggest that you buy a shell one size larger than you need, however. It fits, but quite tightly.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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The vast majority of survivable skydiving accidents do not involve head trauma. Feet, ankles, wrists, shoulders, spines, butts -- this is where all the damage happens. I suspect this is one reason why there's not much available in the marketplace. I haven't seen any studies, but I believe the number of cases where greater head protection would have made a significant difference is vanishingly small.

The other reason has already been mentioned. Greater protection generally correlates w/ greater weight. The effect of opening shock on the neck has been very well studied. Even a few extra ounces has a large effect & over the course of 100's or 1000's of jumps is far more likely to cause neck pain & other medical issues.

I would not wear a helmet not specifically designed for skydivers.

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bibliwho

The vast majority of survivable skydiving accidents do not involve head trauma. Feet, ankles, wrists, shoulders, spines, butts -- this is where all the damage happens. I suspect this is one reason why there's not much available in the marketplace. I haven't seen any studies, but I believe the number of cases where greater head protection would have made a significant difference is vanishingly small.

The other reason has already been mentioned. Greater protection generally correlates w/ greater weight. The effect of opening shock on the neck has been very well studied. Even a few extra ounces has a large effect & over the course of 100's or 1000's of jumps is far more likely to cause neck pain & other medical issues.

I would not wear a helmet not specifically designed for skydivers.



Every year there are fatal accidents that may have been survivable had the jumper had better head protection - often several in a single year. Many (most?) of these are collisions - either in freefall or under canopy - that renders the jumper unconscious or dead from the impact. In many of these cases the jumper may not have been killed or knocked out with better head protection.

I personally know 2 jumpers in the past few years who might have been saved with something better than the "vanity" helmets we wear. Our helmets are better than nothing and do offer some protection, but when it comes to real impacts that we could protect against, our helmets suck.

I do believe the technology exists to develop a better, truly protective helmet that would be skydiving friendly. The biggest hurdle I believe is scale. The potential market isn't large enough to support the research and development costs. It might be possible if a developer can find multiple markets for the product.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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The vast majoity of accidents in any sport don't involve head trama. I've never needed my helmet in decades of skiing and cycling. The problem is, the ones that DO require head protection are impossible to recover from. I was reading the fatality reports and it looks like a lot...maybe 20% of those guys, would've benefited greatly from an actual helmet, not to speak of the people who didn't die but suffered permanent head injury. A pro-tec offers good protection, but I'm looking for something full-face.

As far as getting them off quickly, most ski and bike helmets I've seen are easier to remove than some skydiving buckles I've seen. It's the motorcycle helmets that are finicky to get off.

Something else with helmets is that fit is critical- not just the size, but the shape. The less it moves around on your head, the better it stays in place in an incident. Getting something a size bigger and adding more memory foam is an idea, but it'd be a gamble on fit, and memory foam from Oregon Aero won't stay put as well as rigid styrofoam.

Good point on the market being small (my USPA number is still less than a third of a million), so perhaps we need something from a different market. This snowboard helmet looks good, although it doesn't offer a drop-down visor. http://www.blessthisstuff.com/stuff/wear/headwear/ruroc-rg-1-core-snowboard-helmet/

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Yea it looks like the design would catch too much air in freefall and put a lot of pressure on the chin strap and be uncomfortable. Try it and see. People might look at you strange. Get a protec or benny.
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

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In hang-gliding and paragliding, companies like Charly and Icaro have full face helmets that are certified to EN 966, the European HG/PG standard, and use polystyrene liners to achieve that. Their aerodynamic shape tends to be for airflow coming from infront of the face however.

Icaro has one version they promote for skydiving, but it is a bit odd (with a zip up neck dam).

I have no idea if any skydivers over in Europe (where PG is more common) use any such helmets...

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In Canopy Formation jumping, head protection is frequently needed, due to possibly violent mid-air impacts. Since it's not freefall and speech and hearing are essential, open-face helmets are usually worn. Ski helmets are ideal because of light weight and strength. Most are far better protection than any skydiving helmet. Years ago, the alternative to the flexible leather "frap hat", was a hockey helmet. The aerodynamics of modern full-face are probably better than a hockey or ski helmet. With one of those, the strap would have to be pretty tight to hold it on in a face-to-earth position. Most skydiving helmets have a better tightening system that grips around the back of the head as well as under the chin.

To answer your main question - Yes, skydiving helmets are poor protection for major crashes. They mostly help only for a kick or elbow to the head or incidental bump against the airplane door frame. If you want more protection than that, there's nothing wrong with wearing your ski helmet and skydive goggles.

Kevin K.
_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

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I can't tell from the photo, I'd have to hold it sideways, but is there some separation between the sides of the helmet and your head? One of these days you're going to land with a red welt on the side of your face the width of a riser. It's a riser burn, you opened in an awkward position and the riser slapped you in the side of the head then kept going. Unless it catches under your helmet because it isn't snug with your head. Then something is going to give.

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I have the first version of the Paratec Freezr. It has soft padding, not much for impact protection. I don't know how it is in their current version.

The ski helmet should work, as long as it doesn't have any snag points. I'm using my old Alpina skihelmet as open face. Works good for me: my dytter fits nicely in the lining and it has this dial tightening system around the neck. It's lightweight and with EN1077 certification it offers better protection then the usual skydiving helmet, price was only €80/$95.

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https://www.purehockey.com/product.aspx?itm_id=18155&div_id=2&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8O6887Hm1wIVhrjACh2cnwpIEAQYCSABEgL8l_D_BwE

I wore a hockey helmet right off student status, but back then there was only one skydiving helmet.

http://tonflyusa.com/helmets.php

I like the TonFly helmet, I think they offer some good protection vs weight

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rjklein4470


http://tonflyusa.com/helmets.php

I like the TonFly helmet, I think they offer some good protection vs weight



Ok, looks like most of their stuff is regular skydiving helmets, but the TonFly Ice in particular is their multi sport one, certified to:

"European standard EN1077: 2007-American standard SSTM F2040-11 for SKIING and SNOWBOARDING and European standard EN966: 2012 + A1: 2012, category HPG for AIRBORNE SPORTS."

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your helmet in skydiving is not there to prevent head injuries... its there to keep yourself from smacking your head on the door and a mount for your badass go pros.... pretty much it... any collision that a dot approved helmet could help at all will generally be pretty brutal and helmet protection will be the least of your worries.... Wind drag, and weight specifically hard opening wise are other points....
I was that kid jumping out if his tree house with a bed sheet. My dad wouldn't let me use the ladder to try the roof...

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IamAdam

. I was reading the fatality reports and it looks like a lot...maybe 20% of those guys, would've benefited greatly from an actual helmet, not to speak of the people who didn't die but suffered permanent head injury.



I'd like to see your research, because I think you've got some major bias in there.

If 20% of injuries could be prevented by better head gear, don't you think we'd be using it?

A DOT rated helmet would be expensive, require regular replacement (every 5 years or significant impact (and yes, dropping it off a table when it's got a camera in it counts) according to motorcycle recommendations), less comfy, and wouldn't look as cool.

If you're looking for something for more protection, snowboard helmets are a good bet. Just take off anything that could snag a line like the goggle keeper buttons. Spend money on training and an AAD. Those'll keep you safer than an expensive helmet for general skydiving...

CRTW / competition RW / VRW might be different.

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Alexg3265

your helmet in skydiving is not there to prevent head injuries... its there to keep yourself from smacking your head on the door and a mount for your badass go pros....


My helmet is not for skydiving but for landing :)Just in case I mess up and smack my head into the concrete.
And as camera mount, of course.

It doesn't need to be a motor helmet, but I feel a bit more comfortable with some EPS between me and the earth.

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I'm going to give you some "un" scientific data.

I have patched up more broken skydivers than you could ever imagine.

Hook turns, no flares, canopy collisions, mid air collisions, main reserve entanglements, wire strikes, tree strikes, building strikes, vehicle strikes, medical issues leading to unconscious landings, etc.

In every single case, the people wearing a skydiving helmet had a MUCH greater chance of survival than the people without one.

Skydiving helmets aren't perfect, however the do an adequate job in the case of a mishap.

The one thing I have noted is that the chin area should be reinforced to be stronger, as this is a common area that cracks wide open after a hard impact.

A little more interior padding will also greatly reduce the effects of coup and contracoup injuries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_contrecoup_injury

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I noticed a lot of you meantioned the cost of protective full face helmet. Basic motorcycle helmets are less expensive than say a mainstream full face skydive helmet, yet they have a lot more certified protection. There are also ski helmets etc.

I mean, theese plastic shells (g3,kiss etc.) cost 350$ to 500$. So tell me, why are they so expensive now? I hardly believe that the production of a G3 is more expensive than a good ski or basic motorcycle helmet. It seems it's all about the branding and the fact skydiving is unique and regarded as a high class expensive sport with a small market.

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Maddingo


I mean, theese plastic shells (g3,kiss etc.) cost 350$ to 500$. So tell me, why are they so expensive now? I hardly believe that the production of a G3 is more expensive than a good ski or basic motorcycle helmet.




It's basic economics.

You can sell to many with a small profit margin, or to few with a large one and remain profitable.

How many motorcyclists do you think there are? How many skydivers?
The cost of developing, testing, marketing and producing a product divided by 100,000,000 is a lot smaller than by 10,000.

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Rather than be a test jumper for that ski helmet, I would spend $50 on a Protec, which does have crash padding, certification if you get the right version and years of proven skydiving compatibility.

"Featuring a HDPE or ABS shell lined with EPS Foam and Compression Moulded Padding, stainless steel hardware and soft tubular webbing. Certification: CE EN 1078 / CPSC 1203"

Full faces are nice in colder weather and a good idea if you are doing competition FS but otherwise largely a fashion statement.

Get the full cut version and it's relatively easy to cut a hole for an audible which is likely to be another upcoming purchase:)

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yoink

***If 20% of injuries could be prevented by better head gear, don't you think we'd be using it?



Nope. There are many, many skydivers who do not use the best equipment possible for any number of tasks. Hell, there are people that jump with no helmet all. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out that ANY head protection is better than none. Jumpers also skydive without visual and audible altimeters, jump ratty-ass gear, jump without RSL's and AAD's, and on, and on.

So no, I don't think some jumpers would use better gear if it was available. They already don't. One reason might be cost. For example, some of the helmets being produced today cost over 400 bucks and would barely keep your hair in place in the event of a substantial blow to the head.

As for the numbers, 20% may be right and it may be wrong, but I can say for sure in my 3 decades of jumping that I have personally seen countless injuries and fatalities that would have been reduced in severity or avoided completely with better protective equipment than the jumper was using.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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