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TJQ41190

Exit Separation

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What do y'all think of this skydive? I just stumbled across it on youtube and it seemed like it was pretty sketchy.

You can see the two way open up on the right side of the frame at 1:20...

you see another canopy almost on level and on the other side of the student jumper as he opens...

... and I think the fourth canopy is opening on level with the coach as he opens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCguof58-vU

I'm a student and something that kinda bugs me about safety is not having control over the actions of other jumpers and how a poor decision or confusion on the load could put myself, or someone else, or multiple people in a bad spot.

In the loading area before one of my AFF jumps, a tracking group was unaware that jump run had changed - for example.

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How strict is your DZ about proper exit separation?

How much do they control 'unusual*' stuff like tracking, angle and wingsuits?

How well do they communicate things like changes in jumprun?
I can easily see how jumpers would not know about a change until they got to the loading area. But it should be made clear to them before they get on the plane (landing direction is the same sort of thing).

All of those are indicators of the safety culture at the DZ. Nothing you can do about those other than choose another DZ if you don't like it.

Not sure about the video you posted The other canopies don't seem to be 'danger close'. But it's very hard to say due to the effects of the wide angle lenses on most cameras.
You seem to be worried that they are 'on level'. If they are all opening at the same altitude, they will be pretty close to being that way. It's the proximity that would be an issue.

* I used the word 'unusual' for angle, tracking and wingsuits even though it is pretty common now. But those sorts of jumps can easily put jumpers into places that they wouldn't be if they were falling straight down. They need to be organized and conducted carefully to prevent any traffic conflicts. I've seen some sketchy and potentially very dangerous stuff happen when they weren't.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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Perhaps my reaction to the video is indicative of my experience and my currency. I just stumbled upon it looking at coach jump videos and my first reaction was "yikes"....

It appears there is zero vertical separation and the student actually opens up lower than the blue canopy that was open before him. Just didn't seem normal to me..

I'm going to be sure to bring this concern up with my instructor during my recurrency seeing as I'm still learning how to spot.

Cheers

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TJQ41190

What do y'all think of this skydive? I just stumbled across it on youtube and it seemed like it was pretty sketchy.

You can see the two way open up on the right side of the frame at 1:20...

you see another canopy almost on level and on the other side of the student jumper as he opens...

... and I think the fourth canopy is opening on level with the coach as he opens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCguof58-vU

I'm a student and something that kinda bugs me about safety is not having control over the actions of other jumpers and how a poor decision or confusion on the load could put myself, or someone else, or multiple people in a bad spot.

In the loading area before one of my AFF jumps, a tracking group was unaware that jump run had changed - for example.



The coach gave roughly nine seconds of separation between his student and the group that left in front of them. If the winds were moderate or light, then that would have been sufficient separation. Regarding the group that left after them, it's impossible to say when they left but typically exit order would put all the fun jumpers out before the students, so whoever left after them would have likely been an instructor (tandem, coach or AFF) if that DZ follows standard exit order prescience. If there were no other instructors on the load, then the last three remaining groups would have been possibly a tracker, wingsuiter or high pull, but none of those should have been anywhere close to the student upon deployment.

The blue canopy that opened might have turned down jump run and that's why the canopy is close. It is possible to get out with sufficient separation, but then close that gap by flying down jump run as soon as you open your parachute. By doing that in essence you're flying your canopy directly toward the other people that are still in freefall.

Otherwise, the dive looks fairly normal for cat G other than the student was unstable while deploying, went head low and that's why her feet swung in front of her upon opening. But for less than 15 jumps it's not unreasonable for her experience level.

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Like wolfriverjoe wrote: Vertical separation is not what's important.

Think about it. Let's say jump run is relatively fast and groups exit 5 seconds after each other. If everyone pulls at the same altitude, say 3,500 feet, then how much vertical distance is there going to be in 5 seconds of canopy flight? How much does a canopy sink in 5 seconds? Not much! People pulling at slightly different altitudes, canopies sniveling shorter or longer, and people free-falling at different speeds is going to make MUCH more of a difference. So easily canopies will open at the same altitude; or later groups might even open lower than earlier groups and potentially even earlier or at the same time.

So: It's all about horizontal separation. Make sure exit separation is appropriate for the ground speed of jump-run (the solo exit after the first group on the video seemed to leave only 3 seconds, which seems little separation to me on a King-Air, which is usually not that fast on jump run), make sure that exit order is set properly, know how long and in what direction you are tracking on a group jump, and DEFINITELY make sure to watch the other canopies open before you turn yours in the direction of jump run! (that's a big one for beginners. The temptation to turn straight to the landing zone is great when you don't trust your ability to get back from a long spot)
There is usually also a lot of info being thrown around on the plane (landing direction, flight plans of tracking groups, ground speed of the plane, etc.) that you might not notice as a newbie (I didn't right away) and which is critical if you want to make sure you stay clear of other jumpers.

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Westerly



The blue canopy that opened might have turned down jump run and that's why the canopy is close. It is possible to get out with sufficient separation, but then close that gap by flying down jump run as soon as you open your parachute. By doing that in essence you're flying your canopy directly toward the other people that are still in freefall.

Right on, yeah I couldn't quite figure out what was going on and I wasn't sure if it was due to not enough separation out the door, someone tracking or flying their canopy up jump run, or someone pulled higher/lower than planned... It just seemed weird.

I have so little experience that I don't think I quite have the bandwidth quite yet to keep track of canopies in free fall so when I saw this video I stopped and tried to figure out what was going on.

My first few jumps I had no traffic in the air with me, my next 3 there was traffic but everyone (other students) were well low of me by the time I was open... I think this is where this idea of vertical separation is coming from. I did land before 1 girl that opened before me tho because of my wing loading.

I'm excited to learn more about all this. Thanks for posting - just wanted to see how accurate my gut reaction was or if it was just me missing something.

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mbohu

Like wolfriverjoe wrote: Vertical separation is not what's important.

Think about it. Let's say jump run is relatively fast and groups exit 5 seconds after each other. If everyone pulls at the same altitude, say 3,500 feet, then how much vertical distance is there going to be in 5 seconds of canopy flight? How much does a canopy sink in 5 seconds? Not much! People pulling at slightly different altitudes, canopies sniveling shorter or longer, and people free-falling at different speeds is going to make MUCH more of a difference. So easily canopies will open at the same altitude; or later groups might even open lower than earlier groups and potentially even earlier or at the same time.

yeah I think this was where the confusion was coming from. I remember discussing ground speed of the aircraft, the upper winds and free fall drift and how that effects the exit order by discipline... I've just never been on a load like that. I feel like all the loads I've jumped on it's been 10+ seconds.... especially as an AFF student with the climb out and checking with instructors and getting up the nerve to step off the aircraft.

appreciate the post.

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Something to remember with exit separation is that it is the time from when the previous group drops off the plane to the time you drop off the plane.

For example, on a typical 7 second (or so) separation, and a 4-way, we will move to the door immediately after the previous group leaves, each person setting up in the door in turn (actually first 2 then second 2). By the time we are in place, with the person counting checking, shaking and then counting, it is very easy to take the proper time (or more) by the time we go.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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I also remember that in the beginning, as a student the sky was always very clear and that it was only once I had a license that i experienced more traffic and saw how full it can get on opening.

I assume that also had to do with pulling altitude (which was just higher than everyone else as a student) as well as, that I probably was a bit less aware of everything going on around me (I have to admit). Now--while I don't usually consciously count all the canopies opening--I generally see them all and check for the groups that I know were on the load, so I'm very aware of how busy the sky is.

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Crispy.

Another example of stellar exit separation here. :(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJd6skENPcs

Three seconds of separation (and that's being generous).



What? Looks like 45 degrees to me.








:ph34r:
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

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Hello!

I did a video explaining the basis of the exit order if you'd like more info:
http://bit.ly/2IWExDd

It also has a chart in the description.
Let me know what you think!
Enjoy!
Just Launched a Brand New Youtube Channel All About Skydiving!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXYd4K-SNSjeZqDZs9f78JQ
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