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baronn

182 engine failures

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DBCOOPER

Every NTSB skydiving related accident back to 1995.

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/Results.aspx?queryId=92898a77-0845-4454-8de3-d92819573b8b

Lots of 182s, lots of self induced accidents.



Every jump plane accident back to 1982.

http://diverdriver.com/accidents-by-year/

Every Cessna 182 jump plane accident back to 1982.

http://diverdriver.com/?cat=43&tag=us
Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

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baronn

I'm new to the DZ owner game but, I've been around for a few years and somehow still here. I've missed dying in plane crashes 4 times so far. Suppose to be on the plane and for different odd reasons didn't. 1 king air an otter and 2 182's. I decided when I got in this position, I'd either do it right or not do it.

I did an almost total rebuild on a '59 182. STOL, extensions and a hopped up 520. I hired an A&P, I/A to help me build the motor. These engines are state of the art 1920"s technology. Easily the simplest engine I've ever worked on. Because they are so simple, they are very dependable even if everything isn't perfect. That's why they keep running.

However, as I found out, this creates a sense of complacency on both the owner/pilot and unfortunately mechanics. He wanted to reuse almost every accessory from the old motor. I refused on some, relented on others. Yeah, the fuckin prices were a big influence. Because my guy didn't run the SB's or AD's until just before I was gonna put it back into service, I didn't know about the starter drive issue. The FAA has an AD on this. As these wear out, the starter shaft inside the crankcase starts to wiggle in the cage roller bearing. Eventually this puts enuff of a side load on it to grenade the bearing. The shrapnel falls into the pan and gets picked up into the oiling system. If it doesn't destroy the pump it will destroy the main bearings and the motor will not be running in 30-90 seconds. Scary shit.

He had serviced the outside bearing at the starter and said that took care of it. It didn't. I got the weird electric feeling in my back again and so. in the middle of my season, I put the plane down and decided to change it. 1300 and 2 weeks later, I had it in. Thank God I did. The AD only talks about the starter drive. I changed the bearing also. It's a 10 part. but, a bit tricky to get out. Make sure it gets done. Mine was so worn the shaft wiggled about a 1/16" of an inch. 1 of the rollers were missing. I dropped the pan and couldn't find it. This wuda been a half hr job with the motor on the stand. took 2 days in the plane. I addressed a few other things he missed also. I feel MUCH safer now.

Couple lessons here. #1 choose yer mechanic carefully. He tells ya you can use auto parts and reuse components, keep looking. #2 do your own research and know yer bird. These fuckin airplanes have always scared me more than the jumps and with good reason. The planes are very dependable but, unforgiving if things get missed. Any straight tail is near 60 yrs old. Gear and motors take the most abuse. A lot of times logbooks don't reflect every part of the history. Don't rely on them. learn to poke yer nose under the cowl and do it regularly.

Knowing what I now know, it's amazing these incidents don't happen more often. However, we have seen WAY too many engine failures in the last few years. No doubt the FAA is seeing this also. we need to do better. During my last ramp check with a couple of their reps, They informed me they are more into informing than enforcing and they definitely acted that way. They're actions backed these words. Hopefully this helps prevent any future incidents in the future.

edited for readability




Quote

I did an almost total rebuild on a '59 182. STOL, extensions and a hopped up 520. I hired an A&P, I/A to help me build the motor. These engines are state of the art 1920"s technology. Easily the simplest engine I've ever worked on. Because they are so simple, they are very dependable even if everything isn't perfect. That's why they keep running.

However, as I found out, this creates a sense of complacency on both the owner/pilot and unfortunately mechanics. He wanted to reuse almost every accessory from the old motor. I refused on some, relented on others. Yeah, the fuckin prices were a big influence. Because my guy didn't run the SB's or AD's until just before I was gonna put it back into service....




baronn,

This is shade tree, on the cheap, half assed maintenance at it's finest. Please don't come unglued before I explain. Regardless of your previous non-aviation engine building experience, you inserted yourself into the leadership role in this event completely ignorant of what it takes to IRAN (not overhaul), what I take to be, a hybrid O-470 converted to a carbureted O-520. Your ignorance about critical issues including AD's and SB's demonstrate that you were were completely out of your depth.

I've been in this game 30+ years. What you did with your level of experience is not how it should be done. Your engine should have gone to a competent shop where you should have taken good advice and learned how to do it better the next time.

I'm sorry, brother, but the people you hired didn't fail you. You failed you.

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JoeWeber

What you did with your level of experience is not how it should be done. Your engine should have gone to a competent shop where you should have taken good advice and learned how to do it better the next time.

I'm sorry, brother, but the people you hired didn't fail you. You failed you.



A bit harsh.
Sort of like saying if you hire a crook, it is entirely your own fault.

But we all live and learn. I could hire a contractor who says he can do job X around the house but find out he's also learning as he goes about the job and either didn't realize it himself or didn't tell me. So I learn I should have hired someone with a different skill set. Sometimes learning as you go works -- takes extra times, saves some money -- and sometimes it turns a job into a mess.

Certainly one would expect some better planning when it comes to checking SB's & AD's for any engine and components. There may have been a mismatch of expectations between the two individuals about where and how to save money on the job. But I get your point that for a big rebuild an experienced engine shop may be the best path, despite the cost.

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pchapman

*** What you did with your level of experience is not how it should be done. Your engine should have gone to a competent shop where you should have taken good advice and learned how to do it better the next time.

I'm sorry, brother, but the people you hired didn't fail you. You failed you.



A bit harsh.
Sort of like saying if you hire a crook, it is entirely your own fault.

But we all live and learn. I could hire a contractor who says he can do job X around the house but find out he's also learning as he goes about the job and either didn't realize it himself or didn't tell me. So I learn I should have hired someone with a different skill set. Sometimes learning as you go works -- takes extra times, saves some money -- and sometimes it turns a job into a mess.

Certainly one would expect some better planning when it comes to checking SB's & AD's for any engine and components. There may have been a mismatch of expectations between the two individuals about where and how to save money on the job. But I get your point that for a big rebuild an experienced engine shop may be the best path, despite the cost.


It was meant to be harsh. Read the screed. There is so much ignorance and arrogance on display it's downright frightening.

Quote

I'm new to the DZ owner game



It is not a game.

Quote

I hired an A&P, I/A to help me build the motor.



He hired mechanics to help him build his first aircraft engine? And even then it was an "almost total rebuild" whatever the hell that is.

Quote

Couple lessons here. #1 choose yer mechanic carefully. He tells ya you can use auto parts and reuse components, keep looking. #2 do your own research and know yer bird.



And now, deed done, it's time to offer pearls of wisdom.

People, please listen. If you don't risk a few regrets about how you said it in real time, if you'd rather say nothing than risk an apology, then you are at risk of wishing you would have spoken up when it could have helped.

If baronn is going to do the DZO thing safely and competently he needs to pull in his horns and get a bit of humility fast. He also needs to find someone credible to say that engine is airworthy before he learns the hard way that what you post online can burn you later.

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Yer mistaken. I realized my own lack of experience here. I sought out a competent mechanic and after several referrals and reassurance from this Bozo, I hired him. I had no idea he was gonna be this way until my plane was in pieces in his hanger. No shade tree shit here. Just straight up deceit. Had to finish the project and get it away from this POS. I did. I found another who has not led me astray and helped me finish the project. May want to get yer facts straight before making unfounded accusations. This is NOT a "hybrid" 470 like a P Ponk is. This is a Pro built (Lycon) 520. If you knew what you were talking about, you"d realize there is a huge difference between a true 520 and a P Ponk motor. There's a reason TCM designed the motors different. If you want to know what that is, I'll school ya in it.

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baronn

Yer mistaken. I realized my own lack of experience here. I sought out a competent mechanic and after several referrals and reassurance from this Bozo, I hired him. I had no idea he was gonna be this way until my plane was in pieces in his hanger. No shade tree shit here. Just straight up deceit. Had to finish the project and get it away from this POS. I did. I found another who has not led me astray and helped me finish the project. May want to get yer facts straight before making unfounded accusations. This is NOT a "hybrid" 470 like a P Ponk is. This is a Pro built (Lycon) 520. If you knew what you were talking about, you"d realize there is a huge difference between a true 520 and a P Ponk motor. There's a reason TCM designed the motors different. If you want to know what that is, I'll school ya in it.



I have relied on Ly-Con to do engine work as well. They are the best shop for performance cylinders, no doubt. Was that your "hopped up" thing? Did you do a top overhaul? Is that what they call an "almost total rebuild" down on the farm? I'm also pretty sure I knew Steve Knopp (PPONK) long before you came on the scene.

Quote

This is NOT a "hybrid" 470 like a P Ponk is. This is a Pro built (Lycon) 520. If you knew what you were talking about, you"d realize there is a huge difference between a true 520 and a P Ponk motor. There's a reason TCM designed the motors different. If you want to know what that is, I'll school ya in it.



TCM didn't design the motors different (sic). Again, your ignorance and arrogance is on full display. You make an ass of yourself referring to a "true 520" as no such motor exists. TCM designed the O-470, the IO-470 and the IO-520. The PPonk O-520 (two variations) is an aftermarket mod that is also offered by Texas Skyways.

Of course, I'm (ya) always bunny rabbit ready on yer offer of a schoolin' if'n yer gots the time.

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Apparently you lack the ability to actually read. A P Ponk motor is/was never a true 520. Steve puts 520 cylinders on a 470 case. Someone that has known him as long as you claim shude know this. Also, the case and the oil pump are different. I know this because I've seen them. You seem to be 1 of those Assholes that comes to an incorrect conclusion in spite of what yer being told.

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baronn

Apparently you lack the ability to actually read. A P Ponk motor is/was never a true 520. Steve puts 520 cylinders on a 470 case. Someone that has known him as long as you claim shude know this. Also, the case and the oil pump are different. I know this because I've seen them. You seem to be 1 of those Assholes that comes to an incorrect conclusion in spite of what yer being told.



Well, Mr. Lutz, you've certainly put me in my place. Thanks fer edumacatin' me.

And for your edification, as I pointed out previously there are two variants of the Super Eagle O-470-50 conversion. One using the O-470 case and the other using the IO-520 case. But, of course, now you know that.

And I have known Steve a while. In fact, he did the jump door on the first of 18 Jump aircraft I've owned, converted and flown over the last 30+ years.

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baronn

I'm new to the DZ owner game but, I've been around for a few years and somehow still here. I've missed dying in plane crashes 4 times so far. Suppose to be on the plane and for different odd reasons didn't. 1 king air an otter and 2 182's. I decided when I got in this position, I'd either do it right or not do it.

I did an almost total rebuild on a '59 182. STOL, extensions and a hopped up 520. I hired an A&P, I/A to help me build the motor. These engines are state of the art 1920"s technology. Easily the simplest engine I've ever worked on. Because they are so simple, they are very dependable even if everything isn't perfect. That's why they keep running.

However, as I found out, this creates a sense of complacency on both the owner/pilot and unfortunately mechanics. He wanted to reuse almost every accessory from the old motor. I refused on some, relented on others. Yeah, the fuckin prices were a big influence. Because my guy didn't run the SB's or AD's until just before I was gonna put it back into service, I didn't know about the starter drive issue. The FAA has an AD on this. As these wear out, the starter shaft inside the crankcase starts to wiggle in the cage roller bearing. Eventually this puts enuff of a side load on it to grenade the bearing. The shrapnel falls into the pan and gets picked up into the oiling system. If it doesn't destroy the pump it will destroy the main bearings and the motor will not be running in 30-90 seconds. Scary shit.

He had serviced the outside bearing at the starter and said that took care of it. It didn't. I got the weird electric feeling in my back again and so. in the middle of my season, I put the plane down and decided to change it. 1300 and 2 weeks later, I had it in. Thank God I did. The AD only talks about the starter drive. I changed the bearing also. It's a 10 part. but, a bit tricky to get out. Make sure it gets done. Mine was so worn the shaft wiggled about a 1/16" of an inch. 1 of the rollers were missing. I dropped the pan and couldn't find it. This wuda been a half hr job with the motor on the stand. took 2 days in the plane. I addressed a few other things he missed also. I feel MUCH safer now.

Couple lessons here. #1 choose yer mechanic carefully. He tells ya you can use auto parts and reuse components, keep looking. #2 do your own research and know yer bird. These fuckin airplanes have always scared me more than the jumps and with good reason. The planes are very dependable but, unforgiving if things get missed. Any straight tail is near 60 yrs old. Gear and motors take the most abuse. A lot of times logbooks don't reflect every part of the history. Don't rely on them. learn to poke yer nose under the cowl and do it regularly.

Knowing what I now know, it's amazing these incidents don't happen more often. However, we have seen WAY too many engine failures in the last few years. No doubt the FAA is seeing this also. we need to do better. During my last ramp check with a couple of their reps, They informed me they are more into informing than enforcing and they definitely acted that way. They're actions backed these words. Hopefully this helps prevent any future incidents in the future.

edited for readability



Good points. Yes "choose your mechanic carefully."

IMO, mechanics over the years tend to either get better, take continuing education seriously, charge a fair price, communicate well or they service skydiving aircraft or are involved in skydiving activities , in the latter I have witnessed many atrocities and shoddy work. The war cry seems to be "it looks good to me."

Your right to point out the value of a good mechanic. Except as your finding out you came to the wrong venue to do it. These people squeak by with the minimums of every argument known to man to justify their conduct. All your goanna here here is bitchen about cost, when what their really saying is mind your own business.

This is a prime reason the FAA and skydiving aircraft are intimately linked. And most likely always will be. And my apologies to the few operators that actually care about their aircraft and maintenance.

Like the new warning about fuel selector issues because of worn signage and labeling , etc, etc,...if you do what your supposta do, both legally and ethically, your 182 will last forever. It can be completely disassembled. Every worn part can be rebuilt, exchanged, and or refitted.

Bottom line is 182s' engines don't have issues, never did. What is broken and needs fixin are those that continuously "defer maintenance."

Bottom line is that if a Cessna engine had issues, it received bad or no maintenance or was neglected. In each and every case, again and again, not really a debatable point IMO. Good attempt Baron at fighting the tide though,...
Brett Bickford Did Not Commit Suicide.

He is the victim of ignorance and faulty gear. AND as in the movie: "12 Angry Men," of an ignorant and callous jury.

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OK Baronn, Your paragraph structure never crossed my mind while I read your data. I have operated an aircraft repair, inspection and mod shop for over 25 years. Your writing was very similar to the hundreds of aircraft logs that I have read, only yours was typed and readable. I have owned and serviced several jump planes. Now some scheduled maintenance on PT6's. It is legal for anyone holding a power plant certificate, to overhaul an engine in their garage because it is considered "scheduled maintenance". This is not always a good thing. Your first clue was when he did not want to go through the accessories. Accessory failure causes down time, maybe much more cost if the pieces take a tour of the engine, maybe injury or death. I appreciate you telling us about your experience. This type of situation happens to many in the airplane world. Now, if I have lost anyone because of paragraph structure, you do not need to know this anyway.

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gb1

OK Baronn, Your paragraph structure never crossed my mind while I read your data. I have operated an aircraft repair, inspection and mod shop for over 25 years. Your writing was very similar to the hundreds of aircraft logs that I have read, only yours was typed and readable. I have owned and serviced several jump planes. Now some scheduled maintenance on PT6's. It is legal for anyone holding a power plant certificate, to overhaul an engine in their garage because it is considered "scheduled maintenance". This is not always a good thing. Your first clue was when he did not want to go through the accessories. Accessory failure causes down time, maybe much more cost if the pieces take a tour of the engine, maybe injury or death. I appreciate you telling us about your experience. This type of situation happens to many in the airplane world. Now, if I have lost anyone because of paragraph structure, you do not need to know this anyway.



Reluctantly, the post was about 182s' , which I think you would agree as far as the bigger skydiving maintenance picture you would agree that all Cessna products can suffer from poor or deferred maintenance issues that Barron is trying to raise awareness of.

good points BTW, you also mention the accessory issue with turbines. Good call.

BECAUSE it is these "accessories' " that have brought down just about every Twin Otter in the business. The mechanical fuel pump, a few accessory gearbox and prop gearboxes.

And once again were back to the original posts theme that knowing your mechanic is vital. Of course no one has raised the issue about who is paying the mechanic?

And perhaps jumpers everywhere should take a bigger interest in their local DZs' aircraft, cause by looking at the statistics, there is a clear relationship between jump aircraft operation hours at larger drop zones as compared with smaller drop zones.

The larger DZs like Eloy, DeLand, Z Hills, etc., just don't seem to have the maintenance issues other places have.

Something to think about IMO.
Brett Bickford Did Not Commit Suicide.

He is the victim of ignorance and faulty gear. AND as in the movie: "12 Angry Men," of an ignorant and callous jury.

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billvon

>The larger DZs like Eloy, DeLand, Z Hills, etc., just don't seem to have the
>maintenance issues other places have.

Do you have any evidence at all of this?


ChrisD2.0 doesn't need to provide evidence. He is the knowledgeable authoritative expert on virtually everything.

If he says it, you can bet it's true. Just check his posts on *every* topic in *every* forum here. And also the posts he made as ChrisD years ago (The end of ChrisD (1.0): http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4581656 )

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As I stated in the original post, I'm new to this part of the game. I asked a LOT of questions and checked references and I still was deceived. Knowing what I know now, this would have still been difficult to detect at the beginning because I was simply lied to. The references came from GA pilots that fly less than 10 hrs a yr. I won't get caught again and I now have an A&P/I/A that bitches if you even mention cutting corners. My kinda guy....
I've been able to remedy almost every issue with this person and expect that last few to be done shortly. Pretty much killed my season and I'll be on beans and rice this winter but, I'm happy with my decisions and have a great bird for next year.

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I'm glad you found an A & P that is concerned. You might want to lend him / her to others.

And I too am tired of hearing that this aircraft and or this guy is "the best."

Point being not enough jumpers ever question the airworthiness of aircraft. Not enough jumpers know what their looking at.

You will pay for doing the right thing. But at least you can sleep well at night, and sometimes that's enough.
Brett Bickford Did Not Commit Suicide.

He is the victim of ignorance and faulty gear. AND as in the movie: "12 Angry Men," of an ignorant and callous jury.

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Sounds like you found the right mechanic. The last thing you want to do is listen to what we call " The Lounge Lizzards". They are ready to talk with the voice of authority if someone will listen. Sit around the lounge and not move. Suck up free coffee, while they have free checks coming in and hold you up from working with mostly bad data. And are CHEAP!

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