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Westerly

EPs: Look up before pulling reserve?

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fencebuster

i hate the one hand on each handle procedure. i know two people who have pulled the handles out of order



I was taught one hand on each, to ensure you know where that reserve handle is before chopping. And that's exactly what I did during a spinning mal.

After this long, I am not going to change my engrained proceedure.

That having been said... on another occasion I had PIT and brought my hands in to "right-pause-left", but before I could pull, my main slammed me HARD. Looked up and found a good main, then heard my reserve inflating behind me. The opening had been hard enough with my left hand hooked on the reserve handle that it had been dislodged. Two out.

Just as with total mal (chop first or not), two-out proceedures (do you land both or do you chop), I think this is one of those issue that will always have credible/possible situations (and fatal examples) where both options are either good, or go very baddly.

For me, its a matter of learn one way or the other, then stick with it. Indecision is likely more fatal than either method.

Plan the dive, dive the plan. Adjust only when things aren't following the script.

JW
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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I was tought:
Locate (cutaway)
Locate (Reserve)
Look up (legs slighly up, that way u will likely go into belly position after cutaway)

Peel and punch (cutaway)
Right Hand goes to the Reserve handle as well
Peel and punch reserve

That way u will have at least a lil bit of time between cutaway and deployment...

Thats the way i always practice before boarding and at pincheck before leaving the door...

Stick to what uve learnd and practiced.

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*** For me, its a matter of learn one way or the other, then stick with it. Indecision is likely more fatal than either method.

Plan the dive, dive the plan. Adjust only when things aren't following the script.

Well said. Imho, both methods work, both have their pro's and con's. Both have been tested a lot, and I am pretty sure that statistics will not prove one or the other better or worse ( if I am wrong, I would be very interested in facts and figures). Best advise is to pick your poison, understand the consequences and stick with it.

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Westerly

Interesting. I know this thread is on tandem rigs, but it seems most people recommend clearing the risers:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=2679209;page=2;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;t=search_engine


[.image]https://preview.ibb.co/kECy8T/090314_Baglock_09.jpg[/image]



The tandem procedures are very specific to tandem gear and activation altitudes and yes, there are scenarios in which the EP path is to visually verify that the risers are clear. This is not very relevant to the gear you use.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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skytribe

****** Alternatively, you may stop the process and move your left hand over to help until you can cut it away - at which point you are back in freefall and low, in the middle of a procedure you have never practiced.



You shouldent be in freefall with an RSL. On that point, has there ever been a case of a properly connected and functioning RSL failing to open the reserve container after the malfunction separates? I've been looking and so far I cant find one single case. The only thing I can think of is if the mal does not produce enough drag to extract the lanyard and pull the pin (e.g. horseshoe).

Well yes there has.

VSE Service Bulletin ( http://www.velocityrigs.com/media/manual/airsportsservicebulletin.pdf ) was because the shackle although checked had become dislodged. I believe someone else had posted something a while back similar. Hence the RSL was checked on the ground and during the jump it became disconnected.

By default, an RSL that becomes dislodged is not a properly connected and functioning RSL.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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Westerly



You shouldn't be in freefall with an RSL. On that point, has there ever been a case of a properly connected and functioning RSL failing to open the reserve container after the malfunction separates? I've been looking and so far I cant find one single case. The only thing I can think of is if the mal does not produce enough drag to extract the lanyard and pull the pin (e.g. horseshoe).



I find it rather interesting that you are defending your decision to delay pulling your reserve because "RSLs don't ever fail", yet you are delaying your pulling your reserve because you are worried about the risers not releasing properly...
Which I can't recall ever happening. It may have, but it certainly doesn't happen often.

You have some interesting ideas. New ideas will always receive resistance (We've never done it that way before, the way we do it works just fine, ect). Ask Bill Booth about that.

The problem is that you are choosing to chase some ideas that are flawed and ignore folks who have seen and done a lot more than you have yet. Much of the resistance you are getting is based much more on experience (we tried that and it didn't work very well) rather than simple inertia.

You need to learn to listen to that experience. Someone has a sigline to the effect of:
"Learn from other people's mistakes, you won't survive making them all yourself." (maybe not exactly that, but close enough).

I'm not saying you should stop coming up with ideas, you may well come up with something really innovative and useful.
But you really need to start listening more to the criticism. You are missing some really valid points about the flaws in your ideas.

You also seem to have the idea that there are 'best' ways of doing something. That isn't always true. There are often different ways for doing something that each have their own flaws and merits. One hand per handle or two is one. There are valid reasons for doing either. And valid reasons for not doing either.

Cutting away a PCIT mal or going straight to reserve is another. Both can save you. Both can kill you. It's up to the individual to decide which is best for them. And that isn't the same for everyone.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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wolfriverjoe

***

You shouldn't be in freefall with an RSL. On that point, has there ever been a case of a properly connected and functioning RSL failing to open the reserve container after the malfunction separates? I've been looking and so far I cant find one single case. The only thing I can think of is if the mal does not produce enough drag to extract the lanyard and pull the pin (e.g. horseshoe).



I find it rather interesting that you are defending your decision to delay pulling your reserve because "RSLs don't ever fail", yet you are delaying your pulling your reserve because you are worried about the risers not releasing properly...
Which I can't recall ever happening. It may have, but it certainly doesn't happen often.

You have some interesting ideas. New ideas will always receive resistance (We've never done it that way before, the way we do it works just fine, ect). Ask Bill Booth about that.

The problem is that you are choosing to chase some ideas that are flawed and ignore folks who have seen and done a lot more than you have yet. Much of the resistance you are getting is based much more on experience (we tried that and it didn't work very well) rather than simple inertia.

You need to learn to listen to that experience. Someone has a sigline to the effect of:
"Learn from other people's mistakes, you won't survive making them all yourself." (maybe not exactly that, but close enough).

I'm not saying you should stop coming up with ideas, you may well come up with something really innovative and useful.
But you really need to start listening more to the criticism. You are missing some really valid points about the flaws in your ideas.

You also seem to have the idea that there are 'best' ways of doing something. That isn't always true. There are often different ways for doing something that each have their own flaws and merits. One hand per handle or two is one. There are valid reasons for doing either. And valid reasons for not doing either.

Cutting away a PCIT mal or going straight to reserve is another. Both can save you. Both can kill you. It's up to the individual to decide which is best for them. And that isn't the same for everyone.

I already adopted some of the advice in this thread so I am listening. The idea behind looking up to clear the risers came from an incident that an instructor I know had. He had a bag lock, the risers did not clear and he ended up firing his reserve into his main. It resulted in an entanglement which cleared just a few hundred feet before the ground. So this is a real scenario that has happened before. As such, to me it seemed like a perfectly valid thing to modify my EPs based on a scenario that has in fact happened to someone I know. None the less, I see the concern in trying to clear the risers in a limited time scenario. After reading the posts, I agree that it is probably better to keep the procedure as simple as possible and not add extra steps.

On a note, I recall the austrilian's version of the USPA (whatever they are called) teaches their students to give a nice hard arch and tilt their head up before cutting away. Obviously the idea being you want to be arching if you're going to go back into freefall.

So what do you think, is it better to look down the entire time through the EP procedure to more easily see what you're doing, or look up once you have your hands on the handles to enable a good arch after cutting away?

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chuckakers

By default, an RSL that becomes dislodged is not a properly connected and functioning RSL.



By default, a properly connected and functioning RSL is relatively easy to dislodge.
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

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I look down to locate, one hand per handle.

I plan on putting my feet on my butt as my hands find the handles and going into a head back, hard arch as I pull the reserve.

Don't know for sure because I have yet to do it for real.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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Westerly

from an incident that an instructor I know had. He had a bag lock, the risers did not clear and he ended up firing his reserve into his main.



As others have said, the chance of a bag lock not clearing the risers is small for a non-tandem rig. The pilot chute should normally still have plenty of drag.

But yes, there can be cases where risers might not easily clear. Was your instructor's case for a 'normal' bag lock with inflated pilot chute?

There might be situations with a collapsed pilot chute where the bag would come off the jumper's back, leaving stuff floating around the jumper's back without a lot of drag to pull risers off and past the riser covers.

So I don't mind the idea of waiting a moment to confirm risers have departed, between pulling the cutaway and the reserve. One may already be planning to wait a moment to confirm that one was able to pull the cutaway handle fully, before pulling the other handle. (Although the specific situations differ, where it is more likely for a cutaway to be difficult, vs. risers having difficulty clearing.)

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Baksteen

***By default, an RSL that becomes dislodged is not a properly connected and functioning RSL.



By default, a properly connected and functioning RSL is relatively easy to dislodge.

Correct. And once dislodged, it is no longer a properly functioning RSL. That was my point.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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>By default, an RSL that becomes dislodged is not a properly connected and functioning RSL.

Right. But the comment was in reply to the claim "You shouldent be in freefall with an RSL." It's important to realize that "a properly connected and functioning RSL" can become a "non properly connected RSL" with very little warning.

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Westerly

has there ever been a case of a properly connected and functioning RSL failing to open the reserve container after the malfunction separates?



I've personally landed with an RSL disconnected and dangling after a jump. Part of my gear-check is to make sure that RSL is connected before exit, which means the red lanyard it got somehow snagged in freefall, or it wasn't fully latched on that rental rig.

That incident completely changed my POV on RSLs/MARDs.

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I've personally landed with an RSL disconnected and dangling after a jump. Part of my gear-check is to make sure that RSL is connected before exit, which means the red lanyard it got somehow snagged in freefall, or it wasn't fully latched on that rental rig.

That incident completely changed my POV on RSLs/MARDs.



Hey there, @uer16! Was your RSL shackle among those affected by the service bulletin referenced earlier in this thread? Just curious...

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By default, an RSL that becomes dislodged is not a properly connected and functioning RSL.


Agreed chuck, but the problem with RSL shackles becoming dislodged during opening has been reported. Hence you could check the RSL prior to leaving the plane and it was secure and upon opening with a malfunction it now is not. Do you check the RSL is connected after opening - especially in the event of a malfunction. Nothing is perfect and clearly the shackle was demonstrating this.

Also there has been reported problems with RSL and the two rings setup on some container not always allowing a clean release of the main - especially in the case of a 2 out situation. This was detailed at a PIA symposium presentation. In a two out situation, Time permitting (disconnect the RSL) before cutting away the main. Its not as though its helping if both canopies are out but is just another point connecting the main to you.

Also Strong tandem Risers/RSLs are constructed differently with the Shackle on the riser and the lanyard simply being a loop. I know of at least one incident personally where a cutaway occured and the main did not release and got hung up. So yes tandem gear is different but nothing is perfect. Know your gear and practice your emergency procedures until they are 2nd nature.

In the event of a malfunction, this is not the time to be trying to remember what you need to do. You need to know and have regularly practiced your emergency procedures and Act accordingly.

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My biggest, of many, problems with an RSL is that there's no place to put it if you're on a jump where you need to disconnect it. If there were a small loop or something to allow you to safely stow it it would make it a little less out of the question for me.

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mathrick

The standard place seems to be around the cutaway housing. Is there anything wrong with that?



I've seen that, I've done that, and I've yet to see/concieve of a problem with it, but always wondered if anyone's ever had an issue with it...
JW
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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Something else that I'm not sure I've seen mentioned is that your body often follows your head. I've seen people who were looking up at their malfunction as they cut away roll backwards onto their back because of it. Looking down at your handles helps ensure that you'll roll forwards. A lot of people think (and this comes up a lot for tandem pax exits) that if your head is back it helps you arch. That may be so, but the important element of the arch is hips forward, shoulders/knees/legs back. If you've got that, you really shouldn't need your head back.

And a couple people mentioned that looking at the mal or the ground can cause stress and hesitation of the EPs. As NickDG used to say, "Don't look at the dogs, work the lock".

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dudeman17

I've seen people who were looking up at their malfunction as they cut away roll backwards onto their back because of it.



I'd like to see evidence of that.

My guess is when suspended from the harness connection point during a malfunction, a jumper's head position has little or nothing to do with what happens when the cutaway occurs relative to other factors like spin-induced body attitude, body position at the time of release, etc.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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My guess is when suspended from the harness connection point during a malfunction, a jumper's head position has little or nothing to do with what happens when the cutaway occurs relative to other factors like spin-induced body attitude, body position at the time of release, etc.


That's what he said. What's important is not head position; what's important is that often, head position influences body position.

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dudeman17

Something else that I'm not sure I've seen mentioned is that your body often follows your head. I've seen people who were looking up at their malfunction as they cut away roll backwards onto their back because of it. Looking down at your handles helps ensure that you'll roll forwards. A lot of people think (and this comes up a lot for tandem pax exits) that if your head is back it helps you arch. That may be so, but the important element of the arch is hips forward, shoulders/knees/legs back. If you've got that, you really shouldn't need your head back.



That could explain one of my cutaways. I was going over on my back and compromised. I kept holding the reserve handle with my right hand as I went on over and stabled out. I had plenty of altitude but if I lost it I didn't want to have to look for a handle, just pull. But I had definitely been looking up at the piece of trash that should have been a parafoil as I chopped.

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chuckakers

***I've seen people who were looking up at their malfunction as they cut away roll backwards onto their back because of it.



I'd like to see evidence of that.

My guess is when suspended from the harness connection point during a malfunction, a jumper's head position has little or nothing to do with what happens when the cutaway occurs relative to other factors like spin-induced body attitude, body position at the time of release, etc.


I don't have any evidence for you other than that I've watched it happen and have talked to others that it has happened to. As you've said, certainly there are other factors that can have an effect. Someone chopping from a spinning mal is going to get flicked however it happens. A MARD would probably affect one's body position, an RSL perhaps less so. But someone under a larger, docile canopy with a non-spinning malfunction, if the weight of their head is craned back behind their center of gravity, certainly that could effect a backwards roll post-cutaway.

I'm not saying that this is the end-all be-all reason not to look up, just another factor in the argument against it.

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