Westerly 61 #1 June 11, 2018 I do the standard one hand on cutaway, one hand on reserve style EPs. That is, right hand cutaway handle, left hand reserve handle, right hand peel-punch, left hand peel-punch. I noticed that everyone I've ever seen practicing EPs on the airplane looks down during the entire sequence and they pull their reserve immediately after pulling the cutaway handle. However, I have considered changing my EPs to: Look down, locate cutaway, right hand on cutaway. Look down, locate reserve, left hand on reserve, then look UP at the malfunction and initiate peel-punch on the cutaway and peel-punch on the reserve while continuing to look UP. The idea is that you should verify that the risers have cleared your rig before deploying the reserve, and if they do not then in theory I would take my hands off the reserve handle after cutting away, clear the risers, look down and then locate and pull the reserve. One person argued you dont want to waste time looking up, you just want to cut away and get the reserve out ASAP. My counterargument was that I jump an RSL with Skyhook, and so with near certainty the RSL is going to beat me to the job regardless of how I conduct my EPs and thus it's worth taking the extra second to LOOK up to ensure a bag lock, streamer or other high speed, low drag malfunction has actually cleared the risers off the rig before pulling the reserve. Otherwise the obvious risk is that if you're looking down the entire time while conducting your EPs you have not verified the malfunction has cleared and you could be firing your reserve into the bag lock/ streamer/ horseshoe/ whatever. Thoughts? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,716 #2 June 11, 2018 1) Not a fan of one hand per handle, but that's personal preference. 2) You do NOT want to be looking up while cutting away a bag lock. A reserve opening at faster than terminal could lead to a broken neck. 3) First verify that you really have a mal, then cutaway and open your reserve. Checking again is just wasting time - time you might not have. QuoteThe idea is that you should verify that the risers have cleared your rig before deploying the reserve, and if they do not then in theory I would take my hands off the reserve handle after cutting away, clear the risers, look down and then locate and pull the reserve. You don't have time. If your risers don't release under the loads of a mal, it is VERY unlikely that you'll be able to clear them by messing around with them. If you practice doing that, it's likely you'll mess with them until impact. You are in general better off opening your reserve. Much better to land under a reserve entangled with a bag lock than under a bag lock. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Westerly 61 #3 June 11, 2018 Interesting. I know this thread is on tandem rigs, but it seems most people recommend clearing the risers: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=2679209;page=2;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;t=search_engine Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Timxx 1 #4 June 11, 2018 In the thread it is clearly posted, that a tandem RIG with a baglock is a very unique situation, where it is maybe necessary to clear the risers, before pulling the reserve, because of the collapsed drogue. I do not think, that if your (not collapsed) PC is not clearing the risers, that you are manually able to do so (as bill said). Or what do you think? In the case you are not able to clear them, the only think what will happen is you are losing time... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deimian 43 #5 June 11, 2018 You could have a collapsed (or partially collapsed) PC. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 134 #6 June 11, 2018 No. One second can be the difference between life and death. There is a reason EPs are taught the way they are. Stick to that, it gives you your best chance of survival.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skytribe 16 #7 June 11, 2018 Westerly One person argued you dont want to waste time looking up, you just want to cut away and get the reserve out ASAP. My counterargument was that I jump an RSL with Skyhook, and so with near certainty the RSL is going to beat me to the job regardless of how I conduct my EPs and thus it's worth taking the extra second to LOOK up to ensure a bag lock, streamer or other high speed, low drag malfunction has actually cleared the risers off the rig before pulling the reserve. Otherwise the obvious risk is that if you're looking down the entire time while conducting your EPs you have not verified the malfunction has cleared and you could be firing your reserve into the bag lock/ streamer/ horseshoe/ whatever. Thoughts? A Skyhook / RSL is a backup system and does not negate a need to pull the reserve handle. Both MARD/RSL have failures as well - small though they may be. I don't see a problem in confirming your malfunction by looking up but then looking down to locate the handles and acting accordingly. As for looking down - if your a two handles on each handle sort of person then looking down is required to locate the handle. Even if your a one hand on each handle sort of person then locating the handles requires looking down to locate them (they can move into a completely different position than standing on the ground). Once you have made the decision to activate your emergency procedures and have your hands on the handles - looking up/down becomes somewhat irrelevent - you need to pull the handles. Anything else is indifference. If you are so unsure about doing your emergency procedures you need to refresher training and re-evaluate whether this sport is for you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RolandForbes 44 #8 June 11, 2018 I agree with billvon on this one. I've never liked having one hand on each handle. I think that makes a jumper more prone to potentially pulling the reserve before cutting away, but to each their own on this one. In regards to the OP's question, I think that looking up at your malfunctioning main is an unnecessary step. You already know you have a bad canopy, spend the time visually confirming that you have a good grip on your cutaway/deployment handle. Lastly, just because you have a MARD or RSL doesn't mean you should assume its going to work. Those are luxury items, and just like an AAD you should never assume its going to save you.Fly slow, pull low . . I'm the best skydiver on the mountain! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,460 #9 June 11, 2018 WesterlyInteresting. I know this thread is on tandem rigs, but it seems most people recommend clearing the risers: Right. On a tandem mal, clearing the risers is part of the EPs. Tandem EPs are very different than sport EPs. You were taught sport EPs. I would suggest you follow them the way you were taught. Until you start doing tandems, anyway."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bob_Church 7 #10 June 12, 2018 obelixtim No. One second can be the difference between life and death. There is a reason EPs are taught the way they are. Stick to that, it gives you your best chance of survival. I know I'm getting into heresy here but I've always pulled my cutaway then went to my reserve. I've never done the one hand on each handle thing and I've never understood any advantage to it but plenty of disadvantages. But then I've never looked at a handle. I took Pat Works' advice and practiced until I knew where they were. On my fourth malfunction I'm convinced I'd have bounced if I hadn't broken two rules. One, never cut away a total. But I did and when the reserve launched the main released. It wrapped around the reserve but the risers were disconnected to they just sort of wound that way too and were tossed aside. It left some pretty good burns on the reserve but I was ok. The second was looking at the handles. I was going through a grand and head down terminal. If I'd had to tear my eyes off the ground to find my handles I'd have gone in. No two ways about it. As it was while my mind was being overloaded at the sight of treetops flying away from each other my hands pulled my R2s then the reserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bob_Church 7 #11 June 12, 2018 obelixtim No. One second can be the difference between life and death. There is a reason EPs are taught the way they are. Stick to that, it gives you your best chance of survival. There's also the very real possibility of starting something that then burns up more time than you're aware of. Especially if you're looking up. On most jumps you've just had 60 to 70 seconds to play but now you could count the number of spare seconds on one hand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Westerly 61 #12 June 12, 2018 Bob_Church*** No. One second can be the difference between life and death. There is a reason EPs are taught the way they are. Stick to that, it gives you your best chance of survival. I know I'm getting into heresy here but I've always pulled my cutaway then went to my reserve. I've never done the one hand on each handle thing and I've never understood any advantage to it but plenty of disadvantages. It's faster and you can keep your handles. If you put both hands on each handle, you're probably not keeping your cutaway or you're going for your reserve handle with something already in your hand (not ideal) and its going to be slower. If one second is the difference between life and death, you can shave that one second by using this method. The other method is since you're grabbing both handles before initiating any form of action, when your harness shifts after you cut away, you dont have to try to find the reserve handle again since you're ready holding onto it. What are the disadvantages of the method? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,716 #13 June 12, 2018 >It's faster and you can keep your handles. It would take a lot of cutaway handles to make up for the one fatality when you can't find your reserve. > If you put both hands on each handle, you're probably not keeping your cutaway >or you're going for your reserve handle with something already in your hand (not ideal) >and its going to be slower. If you put both hands on each handle and don't strip the cables, 9 times out of 10 you will land with your cutaway handle dangling around your waist. >What are the disadvantages of the method? The big one is muscle memory. If you train and train and train to grab both handles, then pull cutaway, then pull reserve, that's what you will do. And if someday your cutaway cables don't clear (riser twist, deformed cable due to hard opening) there's a good chance you will do what you trained to do, and fire your reserve into your malfunctioning main. Alternatively, you may stop the process and move your left hand over to help until you can cut it away - at which point you are back in freefall and low, in the middle of a procedure you have never practiced. By having one step in the process be "pull until your main disconnects, then switch hands to your reserve handle" the odds of both are greatly reduced. The downside is the potential for losing track of the reserve handle, which is less likely if you grab it before cutting away. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,093 #14 June 12, 2018 At home we have always trained look, grip each handle with one hand, pull right, pause, pull left. Once trained, most people will retain what they first learned. I have. I know many people trained this way who have had hard pulls on either handle and have had to adapt by two handing on occasion. I know people who have used two hands for a cutaway and then been unable to find the reserve handle. I only know this because of AAD saves, otherwise we would never know. AADs eliminated a whole class of fatalities known as no pull after cutaway. We never found out if these people died because they froze and forgot to deploy, or if they cutaway and then could not find the magic silver handle. My vote is for putting one hand on each handle then using them. My reason is that way I know I have them both. But it won't work for every person every time. Nothing will. Edit, we train students to just drop the handles. We tell them it would be nice if they brought them back, but that we don't really care very much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Westerly 61 #15 June 12, 2018 billvon Alternatively, you may stop the process and move your left hand over to help until you can cut it away - at which point you are back in freefall and low, in the middle of a procedure you have never practiced. You shouldent be in freefall with an RSL. On that point, has there ever been a case of a properly connected and functioning RSL failing to open the reserve container after the malfunction separates? I've been looking and so far I cant find one single case. The only thing I can think of is if the mal does not produce enough drag to extract the lanyard and pull the pin (e.g. horseshoe). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,093 #16 June 12, 2018 Quote On that point, has there ever been a case of a properly connected and functioning RSL failing to open the reserve container after the malfunction separates? I've been looking and so far I cant find one single case. In theory you should never know. The only correct procedure is to act as though there is no RSL and to pull both handles. It doesn't matter if it works or not. But it's pretty safe to assume that a correctly rigged and connected RSL will extract your pin after a successful cutaway. It is not safe to assume your RSL is correctly rigged and attached though. There are people who advocate for disconnecting an RSL during a spinning mal. I consider this idea to be close to madness. I call it "in air rigging". But on the other hand there are tandem malfunctions that call for doing just that. There are several good reasons tandems open so high and this is one of them. Your level of experience and situational awareness will have a great effect on how you assess and react to various problems that you may encounter upon deployment. You should practice and plan on the simplest and most proven EPs before considering adding more complexity. Many people have died from hesitating to act while trying to fix things. In skydiving you will spend a lot of time on the ground wondering and thinking about EPs. You will ask questions here and get tons of opinions. But you will have very few malfunctions. Which means almost no real practice. When the shit hits the fan it is time to react. The KISS principle will be your friend. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #17 June 12, 2018 I don't mind the two hands on each handle if the people have an RSL. But I suspect it has killed friends of mine who did not have one on a particular jump and went back into freefall trying to find the reserve handle. I much prefer the one hand on each handle because I have been in freefall after a cutaway multiple times spinning like a top and I would not have wanted to be fumbling and searching for a handle while tumbling. I think that many/most skydivers can adapt during a cutaway. My 3rd or 4th cutaway years ago I pulled the cutaway not quite far enough and only one riser released. It was very obvious (and actually quite nice as I went from spinning out of control to straight down under a streamer.) I took an extra half a second to finish cutting away and then pulled my reserve. It was not difficult at all to change procedures a tad. There are hundreds of youtube videos of things not going quite like we teach in the FJC and skydivers successfully pulling out their freebags and throwing them or clearing entanglements by releasing their RSLs and such. Of my 20-ish cutaways, 4-5 have had some "unusual" element to them where I had to adapt. I believe in the KISS principle and I believe its good to keep things simple for rookies, but experienced skydivers need to think and analyze beyond the simple one procedure for everything (pc in tow for example). I remember many years ago I cutaway at 7-8k after a crw wrap, deliberately not having my hand on my reserve handle because I wanted to get separation from the mess and had lots of altitude to get stable. I just remember the initial tumble out of control after I got free of the spinning mess and trying to find my reserve handle during that tumble, and not seeing it because I was out of control. It was easy to find once I was stable. I just remember thinking at the time that I was going to look like an absolute idiot in Parachutist chopping at 7 and never pulling my reserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,716 #18 June 12, 2018 >You shouldent be in freefall with an RSL. Yep. But things fail (which is why we have emergency procedures to begin with.) Such a failure almost killed a student at Perris about 20 years back. In addition, keep in mind that a pilot chute in tow will not result in an RSL deployment. >On that point, has there ever been a case of a properly connected and functioning RSL failing to >open the reserve container after the malfunction separates? I've been looking and so far I cant >find one single case. Google Lutz at Perris. From my own experience, we would very occasionally see a student RSL release when the link between the shackle and the fabric tab (looks like a little keychain) got a sharp edge and snagged either the riser cover or the riser as the main was opening. That pulls on the RSL, which disconnects it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bob_Church 7 #19 June 12, 2018 I know the one hand on each handle is a good method because that's what Gene Taylor teaches. But since I was taught differently I stick to the one handle at a time method. And any novices reading this need to remember to go with what their instructors teach them and practice it over and over again on the ground. And then some more. Get it burnt into your muscle memory to the point that if your brain locks up your hands will just go ahead and do it for you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skytribe 16 #20 June 12, 2018 Westerly*** Alternatively, you may stop the process and move your left hand over to help until you can cut it away - at which point you are back in freefall and low, in the middle of a procedure you have never practiced. You shouldent be in freefall with an RSL. On that point, has there ever been a case of a properly connected and functioning RSL failing to open the reserve container after the malfunction separates? I've been looking and so far I cant find one single case. The only thing I can think of is if the mal does not produce enough drag to extract the lanyard and pull the pin (e.g. horseshoe). Well yes there has. VSE Service Bulletin ( http://www.velocityrigs.com/media/manual/airsportsservicebulletin.pdf ) was because the shackle although checked had become dislodged. I believe someone else had posted something a while back similar. Hence the RSL was checked on the ground and during the jump it became disconnected. Cutting away would have resulted in being in freefall and not having the RSL pulling the reserve. Hence pulling the reserve is part of the emergency procedures whether you have a MARD/RSL or not. You also also appear to want to get into the ins and outs of one hand on handles or not and want to save yourself a second on the pull yet the original post was about giving an extra second to look up and confirm risers gone etc. The best course of action is to follow well practiced emergency procedures. If changing them practice them until they are 2nd nature. The harness can shift significantly during a malfunction so locating the handles in especially important. By feel alone is a recipe for failure. Ladies may not be able to see the handles clearly as they may be obscured by their boobs. Practice in a suspended harness rather than simple standing on the ground. Arguing about the little differences makes less difference than properly executing the procedures in a decisive and timely manner. The altitude loss difference between a MARD and an RSL is little significance if executed at appropriate altitudes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fencebuster 7 #21 June 13, 2018 i hate the one hand on each handle procedure. i know two people who have pulled the handles out of order and neither are skydivers any longer. one by choice after a two out downplane landing that resolved just before it was too late, the other due to serious injury arising from the out of sequence deployments. Under pressure, the opportunity to fuck up is too high, IMO. i have 5 cut-aways, all just like i was taught in CAT A.Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208 AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Westerly 61 #22 June 13, 2018 fencebusteri hate the one hand on each handle procedure. i know two people who have pulled the handles out of order and neither are skydivers any longer. I just dont get how that happens. It's a simple procedure with minimal steps. Look and locate right, look and locate left. Peal and punch right, peal and punch left. I practice my EPs at least 5 times per jump. That means after just 200 jumps I've practiced my EPs 1000 times. I'm genuinely curious how someone can practice something that often and still get it wrong. Was there some unusual circumstances, like they attempted to pull both handles at the same time or something? Do they never practice their EPs on the plane? (I see many people who don't.). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,716 #23 June 13, 2018 QuoteI just dont get how that happens. It's a simple procedure with minimal steps. Look and locate right, look and locate left. Peal and punch right, peal and punch left. Not everyone can remember left/right under stress. Mild left-right dyslexia is not uncommon in the general population. Someone did a study a while back of medical students to see if they could keep the patient's left and right straight. About 10% of them got it backwards under stress (loud environment, impatient doctor.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ajay 1 #24 June 13, 2018 Westerly***i hate the one hand on each handle procedure. i know two people who have pulled the handles out of order and neither are skydivers any longer. I just dont get how that happens. It's a simple procedure with minimal steps. Look and locate right, look and locate left. Peal and punch right, peal and punch left. I practice my EPs at least 5 times per jump. That means after just 200 jumps I've practiced my EPs 1000 times. I'm genuinely curious how someone can practice something that often and still get it wrong. Was there some unusual circumstances, like they attempted to pull both handles at the same time or something? Do they never practice their EPs on the plane? (I see many people who don't.). Don't under estimate stress. It's a humbling beast. Have you had a chop yet?blank Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
evh 22 #25 June 13, 2018 Westerly You shouldent be in freefall with an RSL. On that point, has there ever been a case of a properly connected and functioning RSL failing to open the reserve container after the malfunction separates? Yes. A static line student of mine managed to disconnect her RSL while kicking out linetwists. Big surprise when she cut away and made her first free fall Luckily it all ended well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites