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Calvin19

Rejecting Basic Science

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http://www.9news.com/news/local/next/lets-be-clear-flat-earthers-who-reject-basic-science/466171828

I was not sure if this was a SC post or other one, but here it is.

I'll throw $1000 their way to fund the journey to the edge of the earth. But I want to join to document the struggle.

There appears to be no mental illness at play here. Pure cognitive denialism.

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skinnay

Is this any less stupid than believing in god?



Well, as an atheist, even I must admit that I can't prove that god doesn't exist.
Plenty of evidence (that you can check for yourself) that the world is in fact a globe, so regading flat-earthers, I would vote for "more stupid". Very entertaining tough :-)

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Calvin19

***Is this any less stupid than believing in god?



Yes, but I do believe that is a mental illness.

According to sociologist Phil Zuckerman, broad estimates of those who have an absence of belief in a God range from 500 to 750 million people worldwide.[1] Other estimates state that there are 200 million to 240 million self-identified atheists worldwide, with China and Russia being major contributors to those figures.[3] According to sociologists Ariela Keysar and Juhem Navarro-Rivera's review of numerous global studies on atheism, there are 450 to 500 million positive atheists and agnostics worldwide (7% of the world's population), with China having the most atheists in the world (200 million convinced atheists).[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

So if this is accurate 93% of the planets population believe in a god of some sort and according to you are mentally disabled!!??

Furthermore, both you and I are in a very small minority.

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Calvin19

***Is this any less stupid than believing in god?



Yes, but I do believe that is a mental illness.

Well, as was noted, there's no way to prove the non-existence of God.

There is abundant and overwhelming proof that the world is a sphere. Enough of it so that it was not only shown to be so, but accurate calculations of the size of the sphere were made over 2000 years ago. Both in Europe and Asia.

Also, there are some pretty valid psychological and sociological reasons for belief in God.
It's likely enough of a survival mechanism that we've "evolved" it into ourselves.

Besides, most kids have that belief ingrained (indoctrinated?) into them. If you spend every Sunday in church being told to pray to this God thingy, if you say prayers every night before bed and before every meal, then that belief is going to be implanted fairly deep. Add in the evolutionary issue (if it's true) and you have a pretty strongly reinforced belief structure.

Changing that isn't an easy task. Look at how hard it can be to "deprogram" a cult victim, and those are not in the clutches of the cult and it's leaders for very long.

Not my beliefs, but I can understand them. I can even respect those who hold them and use them to make life better for themselves and those around them.

Those that use their beliefs to oppress others and spread hatred?

Not so much.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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There appears to be no mental illness at play here. Pure cognitive denialism.



I see them as all just pulling our collective legs. It's just a cool club where they get to make up funny theories to explain their "belief". They are laughing at all the people trying to convince them of the facts. It's an inside joke.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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gowlerk

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There appears to be no mental illness at play here. Pure cognitive denialism.



I see them as all just pulling our collective legs. It's just a cool club where they get to make up funny theories to explain their "belief". They are laughing at all the people trying to convince them of the facts. It's an inside joke.



Agree. They likely sit around in the evenings drinking single-malt. Dreaming up new schemes to stir the pot all the while laughing about the publicity they are receiving.

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gowlerk

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There appears to be no mental illness at play here. Pure cognitive denialism.



I see them as all just pulling our collective legs. It's just a cool club where they get to make up funny theories to explain their "belief". They are laughing at all the people trying to convince them of the facts. It's an inside joke.



I completely agree that this is a possibility. However I do not think this is the case with these two and a large portion of the flat earth society. I have no doubt they laugh at the people that argue the earth is round the same way we laugh at them like we are now. But I don't think they are trolling. "I believe that they believe". Sadly that interview linked above does not delve into other 'alternate' science/historical theories on common denialist subjects, though they seemed eager to share their views beyond flat earth. i am very interested in this kind of psychology.

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I actually don't have any problem with people like this - as long as they keep themselves to themselves they're harmless.

The second they try and force their insanity on everyone else is where I lose my temper though. Creationists insisting that the story of how earth was created 4000 years ago by God be given the same weight and time as evolution when being taught in schools, for example. >:(>:(>:(


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wolfriverjoe

******Is this any less stupid than believing in god?



Yes, but I do believe that is a mental illness.

Well, as was noted, there's no way to prove the non-existence of God.

There is abundant and overwhelming proof that the world is a sphere. Enough of it so that it was not only shown to be so, but accurate calculations of the size of the sphere were made over 2000 years ago. Both in Europe and Asia.

Also, there are some pretty valid psychological and sociological reasons for belief in God.
It's likely enough of a survival mechanism that we've "evolved" it into ourselves.

Besides, most kids have that belief ingrained (indoctrinated?) into them. If you spend every Sunday in church being told to pray to this God thingy, if you say prayers every night before bed and before every meal, then that belief is going to be implanted fairly deep. Add in the evolutionary issue (if it's true) and you have a pretty strongly reinforced belief structure.

Changing that isn't an easy task. Look at how hard it can be to "deprogram" a cult victim, and those are not in the clutches of the cult and it's leaders for very long.

Not my beliefs, but I can understand them. I can even respect those who hold them and use them to make life better for themselves and those around them.

Those that use their beliefs to oppress others and spread hatred?

Not so much.

I completely agree with all of this.^
Even while laughing at them I can appreciate their resolve. As fun and easy as it is to merely rip on them and their beliefs there is an opportunity to sleuth around and construct a probable path that brought them to where they are. This is something that they came to on their own, likely there was not indoctrination, only a few lost boys and girls that needed something to hold on to. And the great thing about a believer when investigating such claims in the open, giving them the time of day, is watching how the knot inside their brain tangles and tightens as they are brought more and more evidence until they (unlikely) give in and see the error in their 'personal' pseudoscientific method, or they deny accepting further information. "you must be one of THEM" kind of mindset.

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Phil1111

***

Quote

There appears to be no mental illness at play here. Pure cognitive denialism.



I see them as all just pulling our collective legs. It's just a cool club where they get to make up funny theories to explain their "belief". They are laughing at all the people trying to convince them of the facts. It's an inside joke.


Agree. They likely sit around in the evenings drinking single-malt. Dreaming up new schemes to stir the pot all the while laughing about the publicity they are receiving.

I have a friend (A commercial airline pilot for a major airline) who I have had countless and long friendly discussions/debates on the Apollo hoax theory with. He genuinely does not believe that humans traveled to and landed on the moon. I admit that this is the most frustrating for me to see given how obsessed I am with space flight history and aeronautical engineering. If I was duped, and he was only trolling, who comes out on top? Is it any skin off my back? NO! I had hours of thought experiments and learning specifics about Apollo to counter his arguments. Whether he admits to trolling or continues to believe what he believes, the sun will come up the next day:ph34r:. If anything, everyone sees him ass the asshat for trolling.

When talking with these kinds of people about these views, the best that they can do (convince someone that their alternate beliefs are the truth) will never happen. If in fact they are trolling, what is their end game? Assuming they are not actively indoctrinating young innocent minds, there is no pressing problem with a couple backwards brains searching for their truth. My proposed tactic is to let them believe it, listen to their theory and allow them to search. In this specific case how priceless* would it be to get these kids an expedition to Antarctica?

*lots of money, actual money to send them with one of two outcomes; 1-They see the evidence first hand and admit their mistake(highly unlikely) or 2- their inner turmoil is doubled down, and they alienate even more people. It would be almost cruel to facilitate that. But they made this bed.

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yoink

I actually don't have any problem with people like this - as long as they keep themselves to themselves they're harmless.

The second they try and force their insanity on everyone else is where I lose my temper though. Creationists insisting that the story of how earth was created 4000 years ago by God be given the same weight and time as evolution when being taught in schools, for example. >:(>:(>:(



Ditto.

However, I would like to stay on topic of this specific denial case, but that's a short rope on a long rappel in SC.

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yoink

***Is this any less stupid than believing in god?



Yes.

You can't really prove that God doesn't exist... You can prove that the earth isn't flat.

Edit: Fuck. Everyone beat me to it. :D

So long as the definition is kept vague enough, the existence of one sort of god or another can be postulated.

If you say something inane like 'God is love!,' then yes, love exists so the god you just defined exists.

The moment the definition gets more precise, the likelihood of the existence of a deity becomes easier to quantify. M.D., for example, reportedly stands for 'Minor Deity.'

The likelihood that a cognizant prime mover created the universe, and somehow is concerned by the doings of various entities in one insignificant speck of a lesser galaxy, rounds off to the first thousand significant digits to zero.

Similarly, if you limit your scope sufficiently, the roundness of the planed is moot. Kansas is topographically flatter than a pancake, so the response to a Kansan noting that the earth is flat is 'yep, it sure is.'

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Kansas is topographically flatter than a pancake,





Ever spent much time in Kansas? Most of it is actually rolling hills. Where I live is flatland. I think the flattest place I've been to is the Delmarva peninsula.


Elvis is God,God is Elvis.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Calvin19

However, I would like to stay on topic of this specific denial case, but that's a short rope on a long rappel in SC.


I'm a flat earther denier. I can't believe any of them are for real.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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gowlerk

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Kansas is topographically flatter than a pancake,





Ever spent much time in Kansas? Most of it is actually rolling hills. Where I live is flatland. I think the flattest place I've been to is the Delmarva peninsula.


Elvis is God,God is Elvis.



Well, actually the flattest state in the US is Florida.

Highest point is 345 ft above MSL.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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jakee

***However, I would like to stay on topic of this specific denial case, but that's a short rope on a long rappel in SC.


I'm a flat earther denier. I can't believe any of them are for real.

I was also skeptical of their existence, but I found evidence.

Someone I know announced a $100CAD award if someone could show him a "non-stop commercial flight from Australia to South America", implying that if such flights don't exist this supports the idea of a flat Earth (I have no idea how that is supposed to work, but that was the claim). Anyway, after 1 minute of googling and 5 days of arguing over whether flightview.com is a fake website or not, I did get my money (and I promptly donated it to the Planetary Society).

I find this convincing evidence that the person is for real.

Also, that person happens to be a skydiver. I myself would be uneasy on a plane with him since I think he is delusional. I'm curious what others think: would you jump with someone who shows such signs of delusions in online posts?

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evh


Plenty of evidence (that you can check for yourself) that the world is in fact a globe



Degrasse said something like, "These people know enough to know that they're right, but not enough to see how they're wrong."

These people are conspiracy "theorists." There is no amount of secondhand evidence that will convince them, right? The photos are composites, they're CG, they're fake. The scientists are all liars and so on.

You could spend several years educating them, but not before convincing them that they're not being brainwashed.

They just simply need to see it for themselves.

A practical way to do this is to take them out to the middle of Lake Michigan and, and. . .put them out of their fucking misery, lol - JK, sorry for the little bit of ad lib there.

But seriously, take them out to the middle of Lake Michigan about 30 miles or so from Chicago and show them the skyline. Ask them why they only see the tips of the skyscrapers and only half of Sears/Willis Tower?

That should be all the evidence you need, right? Unless of course the establishment saw us coming from afar and pressed a button that lifted Chicago up out of the water as we were approaching. . .

. . .THEN you put them out of their misery.

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gowlerk

I see them as all just pulling our collective legs. It's just a cool club where they get to make up funny theories to explain their "belief". They are laughing at all the people trying to convince them of the facts. .



No, those perpetuating this idea are laughing all the way to the bank:

"Nathan Thompson, 31, a network marketer based in Orange County, California, set up the Official Flat Earth and Globe Discussion group on Facebook in June 2016.

The group now now boasts more than 42,000 members and even Nathan has been taken aback by its rapid growth.

He said: ‘I actually cannot believe how popular it’s becoming. It took about four months to get to 10,000 members, but in the last four months that has multiplied to more than 30,000 members."




So there you have it, a network marketer. Those guys are just Shysters to begin with. . .

Some of these flat earth Youtube videos are getting millions of hits. A recent ad featured a commercial from Nabisco where the Sun was eclipsed by a cookie.

Up Next: The Moon is actually made of Oreo, not cheese!

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jakee


I'm a flat earther denier. I can't believe any of them are for real.



Isn't that like a corollary to the Dunning Krueger Effect. It comes easy for you to see, therefore it must be just as easy for everyone else?

Just today I heard some guy bitching about how his wife actually believes this shit.

I can understand the ones that have something to gain from this ideology, it's the ones that don't that I question.

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These people are conspiracy "theorists." There is no amount of secondhand evidence that will convince them, right? The photos are composites, they're CG, they're fake. The scientists are all liars and so on

Thank you for putting it so succinctly. It also sheds light on some political posters.
A friend called me up recently; his brother is becoming a no-moon-landing flat-earther. I just don't understand; that's deep into whack-job territory.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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