Nazi's are back!

[winsor 186]

Phil1111

******

... OK. I support their goal; I think that black lives matter as much as anyone's. ...

If their goal was that black lives matter as much as anyone's, fine. That is not, however, the case - their point is clearly that black lives matter BECAUSE they're black, which is racist anyway you cut it.

To put it mildly I am not a supporter of the marchers in Charlottesville, but I also find the other end of the spectrum to be equally contemptible.

"Reverse discrimination" is discrimination, and its adherents use rationalization no more compelling than those they oppose. I'm underwhelmed.

You have difficulties with nuance and circumstance where multiple competing interests, objectives, combine for a common purpose.

Introspection for true self motivations may help you ascertain the most important factors biasing your views.

Good luck.

Thank you Master, I shall meditate upon your wisdom.

We are stuck with an individual who committed suicide by cop; had I behaved in such a manner in the same situation, I would fully expect to be shot full of holes.

The fact that the deceased was black somehow confounded the issue, and BLM was born.

Had the black life of Michael Brown mattered enough to him, he would not have attacked a cop whether he was armed or not. It was his call, and turned out to be a very bad career move on his part.

The shooting of Walter Scott in Charleston would have been a solid basis for the BLM movement, where a cop shot him in the back and was sentenced for second degree murder. As far as nuance and circumstance go, they are lost on the BLM shills.

I hope I don't owe you anything for the psychoanalysis. If you are a licensed professional, your opinion is valuable indeed.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

winsor

We are in wholehearted agreement there.

Perhaps the founders of the movement misstated themselves in the interviews I read, and perhaps I read too much into the roars of dissent when what's her name said "all lives matter!"

I am a staunch advocate of a strict meritocracy, where one's sex and/or ethnicity has zero influence per se regarding hiring, home ownership, college admission and so forth.

I suppose there are some exceptions; for example I worked in a department that was heavily lesbian. The rationale of the person in charge was simple, his preferred employees would go in the field for months at a time without objection, they did not run off to get married and have babies, guys did not hit on them at client sites, their private lives NEVER came up, and the quality of their work was superb. I did not mind working for them on an assignment since I wanted to fly around and skydive on my time off and they would stick around on weekends and work.

In any event, too much has been attributed to Black Lives Matter demanding special treatment for me to be sanguine about it. The last time people like me got Special Treatment it did not turn out well.


BSBD,

Winsor

The problem with the "All lives matter" is that it's pretty damned clear that all lives do not matter equally.

It's abundantly clear to anyone who looks from the outside that "Black Lives" matter far less in our society than just about any other group.

And it's also abundantly clear that "Blue Lives" matter far, far more than just about anyone else.

Look at what happens to the cops who shoot black people. Paid leave, 'investigation' by their own colleagues, usually a whitewash.
Look at the Michael Brown shooting. His dead body lay in the street (during August) for hours.

Look at what happens when a cop is killed. The suspects usually don't survive arrest. The funerals are mile long processions, attended by officers from far and wide.

For the BLM crowd, the claim that "All Lives Matter" is a slap in the face. Because their lives clearly don't matter. The "Blue Lives Matter" is even worse.

As is often the case, when a group that has long been oppressed demands equal treatment, the groups that hold privilege, the groups that were the oppressors are strongly resistant to giving up those privileges.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[billvon 2,396]

Quote

Look at what happens to the cops who shoot black people. Paid leave, 'investigation' by their own colleagues, usually a whitewash. Look at the Michael Brown shooting. His dead body lay in the street (during August) for hours.

Yep.

And why do cops shoot black people? Lately the reason has been "I was in fear for my life! I just wanted to be able to go back to my family at the end of my shift. My shooting that unarmed man was unfortunate but perfectly reasonable; he might have had a gun for all I knew." And the media nods their collective heads and says "yes indeed. Tragic, but understandable."

And yet two days ago cops faced hundreds of torch-wielding violent white supremacists, one of whom murdered a counter-protester. Dozens were injured; several white supremacists were arrested, one for carrying an illegal weapon. Two cops died in an accident while monitoring the violence. Yet of the surviving police, not one cop was so "in fear of his life" that he needed to shoot anyone.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

billvon

Quote

Look at what happens to the cops who shoot black people. Paid leave, 'investigation' by their own colleagues, usually a whitewash. Look at the Michael Brown shooting. His dead body lay in the street (during August) for hours.

Yep.

And why do cops shoot black people? Lately the reason has been "I was in fear for my life! I just wanted to be able to go back to my family at the end of my shift. My shooting that unarmed man was unfortunate but perfectly reasonable; he might have had a gun for all I knew." And the media nods their collective heads and says "yes indeed. Tragic, but understandable."

And yet two days ago cops faced hundreds of torch-wielding violent white supremacists, one of whom murdered a counter-protester. Dozens were injured; several white supremacists were arrested, one for carrying an illegal weapon. Two cops died in an accident while monitoring the violence. Yet of the surviving police, not one cop was so "in fear of his life" that he needed to shoot anyone.

Well duh.

Those are Law Abiding racists and bigots.

They don't want to kill the cops. They want to oppress black people.

(we really need a 'sarcasm' font)

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[gowlerk 1,908]

Quote

The fact that the deceased was black somehow confounded the issue, and BLM was born.

For the life of me I can not understand why you refuse to see that BLM was not born of one or two or even a hundred cases. It is born of centuries of violent suppression. BLM has many white members.

Yes, black on black violence has a greater volume of deaths. But it is a different subject. You are standing in a forest looking one by one at the trees.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[quade 3]

airdvr

And this is why the SC needs to be renamed Speaker's Corner for Liberals. It's plain to see what happens to a forum when the mods are biased.

If it's "liberal" to believe "all men are created equal," then I'll wear that title like a badge of honor.

If it's "liberal" be be against neo-nazis and the KK fucking K, then I'll wear that one to.

That said, I don't think it's "liberal."

I think it's simply being an American.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[ScottishJohn 25]

Atleast they know how to deal with these people in Germany
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/14/drunken-american-beaten-up-for-giving-nazi-salute-in-germany

I find it offensive that America allows these people to piss on the graves of all he people who gave their lives fighting against this madness during WW2

----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you think my attitude stinks you should smell my fingers

[Phil1111 910]

gowlerk

Quote

The fact that the deceased was black somehow confounded the issue, and BLM was born.

For the life of me I can not understand why you refuse to see that BLM was not born of one or two or even a hundred cases. It is born of centuries of violent suppression. BLM has many white members.

Yes, black on black violence has a greater volume of deaths. But it is a different subject. You are standing in a forest looking one by one at the trees.

The nuance of a different subject, a different motive so to speak seems to confuse some. Black on black violence is different from the homicides of blacks. By police that seem indicative of a reckless attitude and bias against them.

For which the defense by police that fear for their lives. Law and precedent in the courts. Seems engineered to preclude liability by LEO for almost any acts of reckless shootings.

Back to the Nazi movement subject of this thread. The "Unite the Right " movement led by Jason Kessler.
-One of the first headliners at Saturday’s event was Richard Spencer... Spencer led a rally in Washington D.C. after Trump’s election, in which members raised their arms in Nazi salutes, and declared “hail Trump.”
http://www.newsweek.com/alt-right-leaders-are-addressing-largest-white-nationalist-rally-decades-650096

Anti Jewish chants were intermingled with the mantra of white power for these protestors. All of which also seemed to escape trump's attention.

Ah well! Golf and holidays is more important than leadership and example. Or perhaps it was less important than all the other "calls and meetings"!

[winsor 186]

gowlerk

Quote

The fact that the deceased was black somehow confounded the issue, and BLM was born.

For the life of me I can not understand why you refuse to see that BLM was not born of one or two or even a hundred cases. It is born of centuries of violent suppression. BLM has many white members.

Yes, black on black violence has a greater volume of deaths. But it is a different subject. You are standing in a forest looking one by one at the trees.

I have heard the explanation of BLM as put forth by its founders, and I'm unimpressed.

If racism is bad, it's bad. 'Good' racism is not the way to address 'bad' racism. I'm all for equality with its ups and downs and staunchly oppose inequality, whatever its perceived benefits.

Counter intuitively, the focus on 'social justice' tends to perpetuate social injustice. The more the difference between one group and another is stressed, the more the line off demarcation between the two becomes vitrified.

Playing the race card increases polarization, rather than fostering equality. It's like using nicotine gum to stop smoking or methadone to lay off smack; in the one case you're still fostering racism, in the other you're still an addict. It is possible to have a color blind society and it is possible to get clean, and the mechanics of achieving each goal are the same.

The events in Charlottesville were absolutely dreadful, and both sides are truly despicable. I suspect the social justice warrior who threw a rock at the neo nazi driving the Charger very much intended to get an over the top reaction from the driver - mission accomplished.

It is akin to the youngsters who were mauled by the tiger in San Francisco, only the person who provoked the driver did not get hurt.

I have no sympathy for people who get bitten by vicious animals they tease, nor do I sympathize with people who come to grief trying to make friends with feral carnivores.

If those who oppose the skinheads and KKK types wish to confront them en masse, it does not take an oracle to tell how that will play out. It's been done.

Back to the key thesis, BLM benefits by perpetuating, rather than eliminating, injustice - whether real or perceived.


BSBD,

Winsor

[DJL 232]

airdvr

***No one could have predicted that white supremacists marching into a city and carrying torches could possibly have led to violence. Everyone is shocked.

You mean like the left wing radicals after the election? Who knew?

And THIS is exactly the wrong response to any of this. The counterpoint to someone murdering someone and severely injuring many others is NOT "The other side has radicals too." That notion effectively normalizes and attempts to excuse a level of violence that is entirely unacceptable in this country. Nazis, clan members and white nationalist are not welcome yet the President of this country has spoken against them in only the vaguest terms. You cannot fly a Nazi flag or Confederate banner AND fly the flag of the United States, they are mutually exclusive. The efforts these people make must be shut down and they must be shunned from society so their weakening voice finally ends. Their right to speak is protected, the ability of their words to become actions must be stopped.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[DJL 232]

normiss

Some of the protesting White Supremacists are being identified from pictures and video....and some are being fired by their employers.

Perfect. I've made this point many times this weekend. They're protected by the full might of our law, police and military to make these statements just to walk into work on Monday morning to a pink slip. Good riddance.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Phil1111 910]

IMO Jessie Jackson is a better example of the racist card argument you are trying to make.

He was a political opportunist for 20 years and made a living playing the black racist card.

Here just for you, but remember high blood pressures are bad for your health.
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/north-america/president-trump/this-is-wrong-this-is-unacceptable-jesse-jackson-criticises-trump-after-charlottesville-attack-36029070.html

On another note the hypocrisy of trump comes out to the fore.

Merck & Co Inc said its chief executive, Kenneth Frasier, was resigning from U.S. President Donald Trump's American Manufacturing Council, following the recent events in Charlottesville, Virginia.
"America's leaders must honor our fundamental views by clearly rejecting expressions of hatred, bigotry and group supremacy, which run counter to the American ideal that all people are created equal,"

Donald J. Trump
✔
@realDonaldTrump

Now that Ken Frazier of Merck Pharma has resigned from President's Manufacturing Council,he will have more time to LOWER RIPOFF DRUG PRICES!
6:54 AM - Aug 14, 2017

So trump just realized this now... after he resigned and trump's ego was damaged!

I'll also add that 99% of republicans are against what these protestors stand for. So the 1% is comprised of trump and....

[Lawndarter 3]

normiss

Some of the protesting White Supremacists are being identified from pictures and video....and some are being fired by their employers.

They can thank the Republicans they voted for for that - "employment at will" is their baby.

And as they say, play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

quade

***And this is why the SC needs to be renamed Speaker's Corner for Liberals. It's plain to see what happens to a forum when the mods are biased.

If it's "liberal" to believe "all men are created equal," then I'll wear that title like a badge of honor.

If it's "liberal" be be against neo-nazis and the KK fucking K, then I'll wear that one to.

That said, I don't think it's "liberal."

I think it's simply being an American Decent Human Being.

FIFY
And

Phil111

For which the defense by police that fear for their lives. Law and precedent in the courts. Seems engineered to preclude liability by LEO for almost any acts of reckless shootings.

This is very true.

Pull the guns out and fire over 40 shots when the guy reaches for his wallet thinking he's being robbed?

No liability.

Sneak up behind a guy rummaging through own his car, in his own driveway, scream "DON"T MOVE" and then shoot him when he jumps?

No liability.

Open fire on a crowded street in New York City, with ricochets and fragments hitting bystanders?

No liability.

There was a recent one local to me. Guy pulled out a gun in a bar, cops got called. As the cops showed up, guy with gun runs out the door, right towards the cop. Cop pulls out his gun and opens fire. One hit on the suspect, in the arm. One hit the cash register and one hit the bar itself. Fourth shot hit a bystander in the crowd, killing him.

Shooting multiple shots into a crowded bar. Killing an innocent bystander.

For a civilian to do this would result in reckless endangerment and either reckless or negligent homicide charges.

Cop is exonerated.

Go figure.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[SkyDekker 1,121]

airdvr

***>Since when did violence equal murder?

Murder is violence. The opposite is not true.

>Your post said no one could predict violence.

That was sarcasm. It was inevitable that a mob of white supremacists marching into a town, torches blazing, would bring violence.

Not defending the RWR. Simply pointing out that LWR were pretty violent after the election. 1 crazy radical doesn't represent all of them.

Unless they are Muslim or "thugs" off course.

[wmw999 2,120]

I understand the desire to distill issues to their most basic elements, but sometimes the presence of multiple elements confounds the issue enough to make them necessary.

For example, the thirteenth amendment was passed in the nineteenth century. Issue resolved, right? Now it's just a matter of time, and former slaves just have to be patient.

With the social, economic, and legal/political power that whites had, well, it didn't quite work that way, did it. How much more patience would you have advocated in the 1940's?

In 1954 came Brown vs Board. Now education is resolved, right? Except, of course, for the "free choice" of whites now to form private schools, and of cities to support that politically and financially.

Yeah, I suppose one can prosecute every single perceived injustice. Expensive, damaging, and subject to social pressure and uneven enforcement.

Affirmative action and their ilk are to enforce equal behavior in some contexts, with the idea in part to make it clear that the world would not, in fact, end if "those people" came aboard. There are industries where it's probably not required any longer; there are others where it probably is, if one considers equal employment opportunity to be a facet of equality. I personally remember a hiring person telling me "the law says I have to interview them, but it sure can't make me hire one." I was too dependent on my reference (I was the person being replaced) to tell that person what I thought.

However, she's probably dead now; it's 40+ years later (still 10 years after the civil rights legislation of the 1960's). There are fewer energetic bigots replacing each one. In part, because our society is turning more "me-first" and "my-way" so that people spend all their energy on stupid shit like reality tv, instead of fostering relationships with real people who they can invite to dinner, or play games, or binge-watch something.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[wmw999 2,120]

There are so many people that someone will go there. I'm fine with ignoring, but videoing and posting it works for me, too.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[normiss 622]

Until your co-workers excitedly exclaim "We ain't hiring no niggers here." after a round of interviews where the black dude was by far the best choice.
Nah, they chose the redneck racist asshole from Georgia instead.

Since Trump, I've had a few "friends" stop talking to me or unfriending me on FB because I refuse to support their racist perspectives.
I am saddened at how many racist people I know.

[winsor 186]

I work in a massively diverse environment, and none of it has to do with programs to enforce 'diversity.'

The personnel represent a real dog's breakfast of backgrounds, but their employment is based on one simple common denominator - they are all smarter than hell and really good at what they do.

I suppose I could be the token who never finished a hard science doctorate.

I agree with the noble goals of most of the programs you mentioned (Affirmative Action etc.), but the implementation has been so ham handed that the cure is often worse than the disease.

I don't drink or take drugs, but think Prohibition and the War on Drugs have been classic examples of doomed policies.

Most of the people I know who don't use tobacco (or heroin, for that matter) do not avoid doing so because of legislation, it's because they consider doing so to be utterly unaceptable.

Similarly, I consider hiring someone for reasons other than being the best candidate for the job is immoral, whether it is because they're white, black, real purty or the boss' nephew.

Laws saying I can't hire a stunning woman whose doctorate is routinely cited in the literature, or the boss' nephew whose track record in generating ROI is the best in the business are as unacceptable as laws saying I have to hire someone who turns out to have a negative net effect on the bottom line because of their race, religion or national origin (I've seen it in practice).

It's much like opposing health care systems concocted by lawyers does not mean one is opposed to fair and accessible health care, quite the opposite.

Beware the Schlimmverbesserung.


BSBD,

Winsor

[SkyDekker 1,121]

Quote

I don't drink or take drugs, but think Prohibition and the War on Drugs have been classic examples of doomed policies.

Considering the make-up of your prison population and the demise of hippies I think the War on Drugs has been wildly successful.

[winsor 186]

SkyDekker

Quote

I don't drink or take drugs, but think Prohibition and the War on Drugs have been classic examples of doomed policies.

Considering the make-up of your prison population and the demise of hippies I think the War on Drugs has been wildly successful.

Given Nixon's stated goals, you have a point.

[billvon 2,396]

>Best thing to do with groups like this is ignore them.

That works until the violence and murder starts. Then you pretty much have to take action against them.

[gowlerk 1,908]

I still say you are missing the central point. BLM is not asking for black people to get special treatment. They are saying they're tired of the " special treatment " they have been receiving. What they are asking for is to be treated the same as white people are.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[billvon 2,396]

>Those are Law Abiding racists and bigots.
>They don't want to kill the cops. They want to oppress black people.

If there's one picture that sums up how cops SHOULD behave it's this one.

(Kudos to the cop in that picture; he's a testament to tolerance, professionalism and restraint, things we could definitely use more of.)

[winsor 186]

gowlerk

I still say you are missing the central point. BLM is not asking for black people to get special treatment. They are saying they're tired of the " special treatment " they have been receiving. What they are asking for is to be treated the same as white people are.

Bullshit.

If BLM focused on cases where innocents were killed where anyone but a black person would get a pass, I'd buy it. The fact that they show up for cases where ANYONE should expect to be shot if they behaved similarly belies that contention.

If you think that an enraged NfL type charging headfirst at a cop would get the response of '"oh, he's white - no problem" you're kidding yourself. There are plenty of ways to commit suicide by cop, and that's on the short list.

I am not disputing the fact that blacks have been killed for being black. Nevertheless, an awful lot of police shootings of blacks would have followed the same script if the subject was Vietnamese, Australian, Arapaho or Norwegian.

I have been in the sights of trigger happy cops (sleeping on the wing of my airplane, for example), and would likely have been shot repeatedly if I had not played 'Simon Says' effectively, and I'm pretty sure I'm not black. Footage of someone in a similar position who insisted on moving quickly or reaching into a bag without permission elicits little sympathy.

It doesn't matter that you're not doing anything wrong. The cop can't afford to see what you're digging for, and he/she calls the shots in that situation.

Again, BLM had the choice of going for equal treatment or playing the race card. They went the racist route.


BSBD,

Winsor