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Nataly

I don't know what to think anymore...

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We are but a few days away from potentially electing a French President who stands for just about everything I am against. And when I look at her opponent, all I can do is shake my head. What. The. Fuck.

I just don't know anything anymore. Here's the thing... No one without the benefit of hindsight is able to know the real impact of anything until the thing is done... A year and a half ago I let a very toxic man into my life... I couldn't have predicted then that the experience would cause me to re-evaluate everything and I would end up so much stronger and even happier as a result. But at what cost??? Would I wish to repeat the experience??? HEEEEELL NO. Some of the most beautiful parts of London exist because they were destroyed by bombs during the Second World War and those areas were subsequently rebuilt... Am I in favour of a 3rd world war to rebuild and/or make people realise how precious peace is??? NO!!!

Argh... I can't even... The system is so fucking corrupt. The candidates are horrible. The outcome either way doesn't fill me with great optimism... [:/] Sorry this is just a pointress rant, but fuck... So disheartening.
"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

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Nataly

We are but a few days away from potentially electing a French President who stands for just about everything I am against. And when I look at her opponent, all I can do is shake my head. What. The. Fuck.

I just don't know anything anymore. Here's the thing... No one without the benefit of hindsight is able to know the real impact of anything until the thing is done... A year and a half ago I let a very toxic man into my life... I couldn't have predicted then that the experience would cause me to re-evaluate everything and I would end up so much stronger and even happier as a result. But at what cost??? Would I wish to repeat the experience??? HEEEEELL NO. Some of the most beautiful parts of London exist because they were destroyed by bombs during the Second World War and those areas were subsequently rebuilt... Am I in favour of a 3rd world war to rebuild and/or make people realise how precious peace is??? NO!!!

Argh... I can't even... The system is so fucking corrupt. The candidates are horrible. The outcome either way doesn't fill me with great optimism... [:/] Sorry this is just a pointress rant, but fuck... So disheartening.



So you think you are special?
"A week before the decisive second round in France's presidential election, many voters are skeptical that either of the two candidates can solve chronic unemployment or tackle security concerns, a poll published on Sunday found...

According to the Ifop poll, 45 percent of voters believe the two finalists would not put an end to unemployment, which has for years stood close to 10 percent in France. And 36 percent say neither candidate is able to protect France from attacks.'
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-election-idUSKBN17V07W

Makes me think of the phrase
"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."

Always be skeptical of something free, something easy, that answers all your problems. If it comes from the mouth of a politician then for certain its deceiving.

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Phil1111

So you think you are special?



I know this is the Speaker's corner but that doesn't mean you are obliged to be confrontational in your response... :S:S

And for the record, no, I don't think I am special... I think there is a widespread feeling of anxiety/disgust (or whatever you want to call it) about the upcoming elections and the current state of affairs...

Quote

Makes me think of the phrase
"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."



Again, not sure where you are going with this?? Care to elaborate?

Hmmm... Why do I have a feeling I am going to regret that last question?? :D:D:|
"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

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Nataly



Argh... I can't even... The system is so fucking corrupt. The candidates are horrible. The outcome either way doesn't fill me with great optimism... [:/] Sorry this is just a pointress rant, but fuck... So disheartening.




Welcome to May 2015 for the UK, November 2016 for the US and June 2017 for the UK again...
Glad France has caught up.

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yoink

***

Argh... I can't even... The system is so fucking corrupt. The candidates are horrible. The outcome either way doesn't fill me with great optimism... [:/] Sorry this is just a pointress rant, but fuck... So disheartening.




Welcome to May 2015 for the UK, November 2016 for the US and June 2017 for the UK again...
Glad France has caught up.

I think this is what Phil111 meant. This is happening everywhere.

Bigotry, xenophobia, "nationalism", all that crap. Hatred is popular nowadays.

Scary, disappointing and depressing all in one.

For Nataly:

As a Canadian/Brit, can you even vote? I don't know the rules there.

If so, vote your conscience. That may mean the "least worst" of the possible winners, that may mean a minor party candidate who has zero chance of winning.

Personally, I couldn't vote for either Trump or Clinton, so I voted Libertarian. Protest vote, throwing my vote away, useless vote, whatever. It's what was right for me.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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ryoder

You'll feel better after you add another cat, (or two), to your collection.;)



Can't argue with your logic!! :D:ph34r:
"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

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Nataly

***So you think you are special?



I know this is the Speaker's corner but that doesn't mean you are obliged to be confrontational in your response... :S:S

And for the record, no, I don't think I am special... I think there is a widespread feeling of anxiety/disgust (or whatever you want to call it) about the upcoming elections and the current state of affairs...

Quote

Makes me think of the phrase
"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."



Again, not sure where you are going with this?? Care to elaborate?

Hmmm... Why do I have a feeling I am going to regret that last question?? :D:D:|

Why don't you read the entire article, reflect on the substance of the article. Think about the idea that everyone is not out to get or attack you. That your thinking(about politics) may not be unusual.

A deep breath,involve introspection...and... pet your cat.

Oh hell, I'll just spell it out. A portion of the US population wanted the easy answer, no taxes, other governments paying border taxes for the rebuilding of the US economy, elect trump.. Or Marine Le Pen.

Everything will be great. Insert "There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse." fast forward four years to see the mess that trump creates because it "certainly can't be worse that what the US has now!!"

take care.

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wolfriverjoe


For Nataly:

As a Canadian/Brit, can you even vote? I don't know the rules there.



Nope. Not in France I cannot. There are many who think that is the way it should be. There are some who go one further and claim I have no right to an opinion on the matter. However you feel about it, I am not indifferent to the results and they *do* affect me...
"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

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Nataly

***
For Nataly:

As a Canadian/Brit, can you even vote? I don't know the rules there.



Nope. Not in France I cannot. There are many who think that is the way it should be. There are some who go one further and claim I have no right to an opinion on the matter. However you feel about it, I am not indifferent to the results and they *do* affect me...

Ok. I didn't know.

I guess I believe that only citizens should be able to vote for their leaders.
Resident aliens, even permanent ones, aren't eligible here and I don't think they should be. And I don't believe that "millions" (or even a handful) voted illegally.

But that doesn't mean you don't get to have an opinion, or that the results won't affect you.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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wolfriverjoe

******
For Nataly:

As a Canadian/Brit, can you even vote? I don't know the rules there.



Nope. Not in France I cannot. There are many who think that is the way it should be. There are some who go one further and claim I have no right to an opinion on the matter. However you feel about it, I am not indifferent to the results and they *do* affect me...

Ok. I didn't know.

I guess I believe that only citizens should be able to vote for their leaders.
Resident aliens, even permanent ones, aren't eligible here and I don't think they should be. And I don't believe that "millions" (or even a handful) voted illegally.
But that doesn't mean you don't get to have an opinion, or that the results won't affect you.

As a resident alien currently in the process of naturalization in the US I agree with this. As much as I wanted to be able to vote in the last election it wasn't appropriate for me to be able to do so.

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Phil1111

******So you think you are special?



I know this is the Speaker's corner but that doesn't mean you are obliged to be confrontational in your response... :S:S

And for the record, no, I don't think I am special... I think there is a widespread feeling of anxiety/disgust (or whatever you want to call it) about the upcoming elections and the current state of affairs...

Quote

Makes me think of the phrase
"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."



Again, not sure where you are going with this?? Care to elaborate?

Hmmm... Why do I have a feeling I am going to regret that last question?? :D:D:|

Why don't you read the entire article, reflect on the substance of the article. Think about the idea that everyone is not out to get or attack you. That your thinking(about politics) may not be unusual.

A deep breath,involve introspection...and... pet your cat.

Oh hell, I'll just spell it out. A portion of the US population wanted the easy answer, no taxes, other governments paying border taxes for the rebuilding of the US economy, elect trump.. Or Marine Le Pen.

Everything will be great. Insert "There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse." fast forward four years to see the mess that trump creates because it "certainly can't be worse that what the US has now!!"

take care.

As previously stated, I do not think I am alone in my dispair. Yes, dispair is a strong word. I'm trying to be mildly humorous...

Some of your assumptions about me are quite wrong but hey... You don't know me so I forgive you :D:P
"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

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yoink

*********
For Nataly:

As a Canadian/Brit, can you even vote? I don't know the rules there.



Nope. Not in France I cannot. There are many who think that is the way it should be. There are some who go one further and claim I have no right to an opinion on the matter. However you feel about it, I am not indifferent to the results and they *do* affect me...

Ok. I didn't know.

I guess I believe that only citizens should be able to vote for their leaders.
Resident aliens, even permanent ones, aren't eligible here and I don't think they should be. And I don't believe that "millions" (or even a handful) voted illegally.
But that doesn't mean you don't get to have an opinion, or that the results won't affect you.

As a resident alien currently in the process of naturalization in the US I agree with this. As much as I wanted to be able to vote in the last election it wasn't appropriate for me to be able to do so.

When I first moved to the UK I was very surprised to find that as a legal resident I had a right to vote, despite not being a citizen. I have heard excellent arguments why this should not be the case, but personally I felt genuinely grateful to have a voice. I took this privilege very seriously and absolutely did not take it for granted.

I generally lean more toward inclusion (which I believe tends to foster respect and progress) rather than protectionism (which I believe encourages fear, hatred and regression)... But it's not so surprising that I would think that... I am the "other"... (Be afraid!! Be very afraid - for we have opinions that can sometimes DIFFER from the local norm!!! :D:D)
"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

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Why do overwhelming proportions of EU’s youth feel excluded?

Europeans aged between 16 and 30 in the 28 EU member states between 9 and 25 April 2016, and found that most of them feel economically and socially marginalized..

For example, 93% of the Greek youths feel excluded in comparison to only 27% in Germany. As expected, the rates of those feeling excluded are very high in the countries, which were worst hit by the economic crisis...

Undeniably though, it’s alarming enough to find that well above half, the EU youths are feeling ostracized by their own society. The striking differences between the youths in the south, who felt excluded at a rate of more than 70%, in comparison with the two best off countries (Germany and Denmark) where the relevant rates are estimated to be below 30%, is an obvious challenge and can be used as a policy guide for decision-makers, if any of them really cares about it..

The next thing that comes to mind is that the future is also not at all promising for those frustrated youngsters, because noticeable economic growth is excluded from the horizon. As a result, there are no good prospects in the foreseeable future for 31% of young Germans. It will be impossible for them to find a steady, secure and well paid job, like their parents did....

Real unemployment double the official rate

Unquestionably, the problems of the Europe’s young generations are related to the general destruction of the ‘good old’ structures, which guaranteed to almost all a normal working and social life. The problem is not only that the official overall unemployment rate is stuck above 10% for years now and ranges freely above 20% for the under 25s, but that real unemployment is double than the official rates."
https://europeansting.com/2016/05/16/why-do-overwhelming-proportions-of-eus-youth-feel-excluded/

The preliminary round of the French election tossed out the candidates of the old parties. Le Pen and the centrist Macron represent a choice between two somewhat unknowns. A more racist version of trump in Le Pen and someone who has no ties to any existing party.

The youth in Europe are akin to trump supporters in the US. They want change and feel like both the Republicans and Democrats are the same. That anything is better than the status quo. Well they are wrong. The simplistic answers that trump presents are no better than the bureaucratic answers the EU is using to address youth stagnation, youth unemployment and the lack of social mobility in the EU.

So the idea that you don't know the answers to open all the shut doors that surround you. Puts you in plenty of company. Just as you can't find common ground with those who would abuse animals. The answers that political parties have for complex shifting demographics and economic changes. Can make a situation far worse before it gets better.

I have no ideas on the abusive ex.

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Phil1111

Why do overwhelming proportions of EU’s youth feel excluded?

Europeans aged between 16 and 30 in the 28 EU member states between 9 and 25 April 2016, and found that most of them feel economically and socially marginalized..

For example, 93% of the Greek youths feel excluded in comparison to only 27% in Germany. As expected, the rates of those feeling excluded are very high in the countries, which were worst hit by the economic crisis...

Undeniably though, it’s alarming enough to find that well above half, the EU youths are feeling ostracized by their own society. The striking differences between the youths in the south, who felt excluded at a rate of more than 70%, in comparison with the two best off countries (Germany and Denmark) where the relevant rates are estimated to be below 30%, is an obvious challenge and can be used as a policy guide for decision-makers, if any of them really cares about it..

The next thing that comes to mind is that the future is also not at all promising for those frustrated youngsters, because noticeable economic growth is excluded from the horizon. As a result, there are no good prospects in the foreseeable future for 31% of young Germans. It will be impossible for them to find a steady, secure and well paid job, like their parents did....

Real unemployment double the official rate

Unquestionably, the problems of the Europe’s young generations are related to the general destruction of the ‘good old’ structures, which guaranteed to almost all a normal working and social life. The problem is not only that the official overall unemployment rate is stuck above 10% for years now and ranges freely above 20% for the under 25s, but that real unemployment is double than the official rates."
https://europeansting.com/2016/05/16/why-do-overwhelming-proportions-of-eus-youth-feel-excluded/

The preliminary round of the French election tossed out the candidates of the old parties. Le Pen and the centrist Macron represent a choice between two somewhat unknowns. A more racist version of trump in Le Pen and someone who has no ties to any existing party.

The youth in Europe are akin to trump supporters in the US. They want change and feel like both the Republicans and Democrats are the same. That anything is better than the status quo. Well they are wrong. The simplistic answers that trump presents are no better than the bureaucratic answers the EU is using to address youth stagnation, youth unemployment and the lack of social mobility in the EU.

So the idea that you don't know the answers to open all the shut doors that surround you. Puts you in plenty of company. Just as you can't find common ground with those who would abuse animals. The answers that political parties have for complex shifting demographics and economic changes. Can make a situation far worse before it gets better.

I have no ideas on the abusive ex.



I have absolutely no idea why you are bringing up EU youths to this debate... If you include me in this youth, I suppose I can but take it as a compliment and continue my beauty regime of not-doing-anything. :P

I dunno if you understand French, but this article gives the split of voters in the first round of France's elections: http://www.rtl.fr/actu/politique/presidentielle-2017-ouvriers-jeunes-ruraux-qui-a-vote-quoi-7788279034

The vast majority of youths voted Melanchon... He wasn't proposing radical change - just moderate improvements... A link to his programme, for anyone interested: http://www.lemonde.fr/personnalite/jean-luc-melenchon/programme/

It's worth noting that the vote was pretty evenly split between 4 canditates... The two who came out on top did not even have half of the combined overall votes - there was no candidate who was way ahead of the others...
"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

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Quote


It's worth noting that the vote was pretty evenly split between 4 canditates... The two who came out on top did not even have half of the combined overall votes - there was no candidate who was way ahead of the others...



This is why the method by which votes are made is so important. Winner-take-all voting has the tendency to favor extremism and split the vote too much for the most favorable candidates. Ranked Choice voting is a much better way of choosing candidates for Primary type elections or when there is a wide field.

The next issue countries have is allowing 51% wins to decide serious matters. In the UK it was only 37% of the population that actually wanted to leave the EU. That was 53.7% of the voters but still not representative of the country as a whole. Barely 1/2 of voters or 1/3 of the country should not dictate a country's future.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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piisfish

Did you watch the debate tonight?
If yes, what did you think of both?



Le Pen clearly just used the tactic of insulting her adversary... Unfortunately, even though a lot of what she said was factually incorrect, it's a strategy that can be quite effective (just look at Trump). The problem being that loads of people tune in to watch the debates, but not the subsequent analysis/fact-checks of what is said.

For me, she showed her ignorance of the political system, how the EU works, basic economics... She is a real light-weight when it comes to the core issues. Where she excels is speaking to the common man and stirring up hatred toward outsiders... So much easier to point the finger at foreigners... Even though foreigners are CLEARLY not the big problem in France... People like her, and her supporters, and the corrupt elite are the big problem. It's why so many French people are disheartened - they didn't want ANY of the candidates, and not these two either...

Still... No matter what you think of Macron, I just cannot put him on par with Le Pen. She is dangerous on a whole different scale... I keep hearing people say he will have a landslide victory... I think it will be close either way, and I fear she is being underestimated.

Brexit narrowly went through... Trump narrowly got elected... And now perhaps Le Pen. Scary. Very scary. I do realise that they theoretically have limited power. But they can still do a lot of damage.
"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

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> Even though foreigners are CLEARLY not the big problem in France...

Creating and demonizing an enemy is a time-tested strategy that works well for political control of a populace. Create fear of a terrifying enemy, then promise people protection. It worked here in the US for decades during the Cold War, and it worked for Trump.

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billvon

> Even though foreigners are CLEARLY not the big problem in France...

Creating and demonizing an enemy is a time-tested strategy that works well for political control of a populace. Create fear of a terrifying enemy, then promise people protection. It worked here in the US for decades during the Cold War, and it worked for Trump.



Yes! And this is why I am afraid she is being underestimated. It is a really good strategy - a lot of people may be saying "oh, I wouldn't vote FN - I am not a racist"... But that is what they say in public - the vote is secret and some of those people will be voting FN.
"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

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