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jclalor

Alternative Facts ?

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Any real investigation will need some actual facts. You know, real ones, not "alternative" ones.



Considering the US invaded a country based on mostly fabricated intelligence, I have no doubt voter fraud can be "clearly established" if that is required.

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SkyDekker

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Any real investigation will need some actual facts. You know, real ones, not "alternative" ones.



Considering the US invaded a country based on mostly fabricated intelligence, I have no doubt voter fraud can be "clearly established" if that is required.



Maybe, maybe not.

It's a vastly different political landscape today.

Back then, anyone who doubted the Bush admin's info was painted as "unpatriotic". It wasn't true, but it was done fairly well.

Today, Trump is already know to be a liar.
Much of the media is already calling him out on it (including Fox). Much of congress is questioning his claim of fraud, including a number of Rs.

For this to go anywhere, those doubts would have to be addressed.
And there don't appear to be any facts that would do so.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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SkyDekker

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Any real investigation will need some actual facts. You know, real ones, not "alternative" ones.



Considering the US invaded a country based on mostly fabricated intelligence, I have no doubt voter fraud can be "clearly established" if that is required.



All they need to do is put Cheney on it.

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>And on the "Alternative Facts" thing, Trump is still claiming that "massive voter
>fraud" is why HRC won the popular vote.

We just found out why he believes that. On Monday he went to a reception and someone asked him about the voter fraud thing. He explained that his friend, Bernhard Langer, was not allowed to vote, while two suspicious-looking people near him (i.e. Hispanics) were allowed to cast provisional ballots. So therefore there is voter fraud.

Bernhard Langer is a German citizen.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/25/us/politics/trump-bernhard-langer-voting-fraud.html?_r=0&referer=https://t.co/MU5TAHryYL

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I have to say when I heard Kelly Ann Conway use the term "Alternate Facts" I kind of winced a little. That was a pretty shitty choice of words and I think it's one that will bite her in the butt for a long time to come....

On the flip side though, there is the old saying "Statistics don't lie, but liars use statistics."

I think that applies to this whole conversation. The news guys used to lay out all the facts and let the viewers make up their own minds.

Now a days you have the news guys that pick a point of view and then just lay out the facts that support their position. It sucks, but that is the facts of life now a days. The line between hard news and editorialists has been blurred and news guys have been injecting them selves into the story either because of narcissism, ratings, or both.

Both sides do it. It's just that it's finally getting some attention because there is a guy in office that the main stream news hates and he is fighting back, and ratings are going through the roof!

Grab some beer, sit back, and hold on. It's gonna be a fun ride!
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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jgoose71

I have to say when I heard Kelly Ann Conway use the term "Alternate Facts" I kind of winced a little. That was a pretty shitty choice of words and I think it's one that will bite her in the butt for a long time to come....

On the flip side though, there is the old saying "Statistics don't lie, but liars use statistics."

I think that applies to this whole conversation. The news guys used to lay out all the facts and let the viewers make up their own minds.

Now a days you have the news guys that pick a point of view and then just lay out the facts that support their position. It sucks, but that is the facts of life now a days. The line between hard news and editorialists has been blurred and news guys have been injecting them selves into the story either because of narcissism, ratings, or both.

Both sides do it. It's just that it's finally getting some attention because there is a guy in office that the main stream news hates and he is fighting back, and ratings are going through the roof!

Grab some beer, sit back, and hold on. It's gonna be a fun ride!



Well don't be so shy. brenthutch needs all the help he can get and seems to have missed this thread entirely. "The line between hard news and editorialists has been blurred and news guys have been injecting them selves into the story either because of narcissism, ratings, or both."

We need some examples and elaboration on how the "main stream" is not laying out all the facts.

Fire away the beer is in hand.

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Phil1111


Well don't be so shy. brenthutch needs all the help he can get and seems to have missed this thread entirely. "The line between hard news and editorialists has been blurred and news guys have been injecting them selves into the story either because of narcissism, ratings, or both."

We need some examples and elaboration on how the "main stream" is not laying out all the facts.

Fire away the beer is in hand.



Seriously? I remember the exact day when it all started, Nov, 5th, 2008. When Obama won the presidency, every liberal news anchor in America had to opine and inject his own feelings into the story. When there wasn't a huge outcry (or any out cry that there was, was labeled and racism) that was the green light.....

The most recent blatant example of the tail wagging the dog was when the news anchor posted the twitter pic of Obama's 2009 inauguration side by side with Trumps inauguration.

How is this relevant? Well, when was crowd size ever a story? With all of the Executive Orders going on in the VA, State Department, EPA, DHS, and the Wall, how is this relevant? Answer, it's not.

The media put it out in hopes to de-lagitamize the presidency. With everything else going on this should not be a front page story. In the end, Trump is still in the White House and the media needs to speak truth to power and watch what he does. There is no need to create stories out of thin air.
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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How is this relevant? Well, when was crowd size ever a story?



Donald Trump made crowd size relevant. Donald Trump claims crowd size is important. He constantly boasted about the size of his crowds during the primaries, he constantly boasted about the size of his crowds during the presidential campaign, and he constantly boasted about the size of the crowd he was going to get in the run up to the Inauguration.

So what you are essentially moaning about is "How dare the media hold the President's own statements and priorities up to scrutiny!" This is, quite obviously, an absurd argument.

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With all of the Executive Orders going on in the VA, State Department, EPA, DHS, and the Wall, how is this relevant? Answer, it's not.



Do you understand the concept of time? The inauguration happened first. Do you think the media should have a 48 hour cooling off period on reporting stories just in case something more interesting comes out later?

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The media put it out in hopes to de-lagitamize [sic] the presidency.



And thanks to the chronic insecurities of the Narcissist-in-Chief it is succeeding beyond their wildest dreams.

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In the end, Trump is still in the White House and the media needs to speak truth to power and watch what he does. There is no need to create stories out of thin air.


Speaking truth to power is what they're doing. The crowd size story is true. The story about the Trump campaign's brazen lies in response to the crowd size story is true. The stories weren't created by the media, they really exist.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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Phil1111

***I have to say when I heard Kelly Ann Conway use the term "Alternate Facts" I kind of winced a little. That was a pretty shitty choice of words and I think it's one that will bite her in the butt for a long time to come....

On the flip side though, there is the old saying "Statistics don't lie, but liars use statistics."

I think that applies to this whole conversation. The news guys used to lay out all the facts and let the viewers make up their own minds.

Now a days you have the news guys that pick a point of view and then just lay out the facts that support their position. It sucks, but that is the facts of life now a days. The line between hard news and editorialists has been blurred and news guys have been injecting them selves into the story either because of narcissism, ratings, or both.

Both sides do it. It's just that it's finally getting some attention because there is a guy in office that the main stream news hates and he is fighting back, and ratings are going through the roof!

Grab some beer, sit back, and hold on. It's gonna be a fun ride!



Well don't be so shy. brenthutch needs all the help he can get and seems to have missed this thread entirely. "The line between hard news and editorialists has been blurred and news guys have been injecting them selves into the story either because of narcissism, ratings, or both."

We need some examples and elaboration on how the "main stream" is not laying out all the facts.

Fire away the beer is in hand.

Sorry but regardless of sides, you've got to be pretty blind to not see that the news media no longer 'report' but inject opinion and helpful 'interpretation'. It's a global problem
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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jakee

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How is this relevant? Well, when was crowd size ever a story?



Donald Trump made crowd size relevant. Donald Trump claims crowd size is important. He constantly boasted about the size of his crowds during the primaries, he constantly boasted about the size of his crowds during the presidential campaign, and he constantly boasted about the size of the crowd he was going to get in the run up to the Inauguration.

So what you are essentially moaning about is "How dare the media hold the President's own statements and priorities up to scrutiny!" This is, quite obviously, an absurd argument.

Quote

With all of the Executive Orders going on in the VA, State Department, EPA, DHS, and the Wall, how is this relevant? Answer, it's not.



Do you understand the concept of time? The inauguration happened first. Do you think the media should have a 48 hour cooling off period on reporting stories just in case something more interesting comes out later?

Quote

The media put it out in hopes to de-lagitamize [sic] the presidency.



And thanks to the chronic insecurities of the Narcissist-in-Chief it is succeeding beyond their wildest dreams.

Quote

In the end, Trump is still in the White House and the media needs to speak truth to power and watch what he does. There is no need to create stories out of thin air.


Speaking truth to power is what they're doing. The crowd size story is true. The story about the Trump campaign's brazen lies in response to the crowd size story is true. The stories weren't created by the media, they really exist.



Despite all your blowviating, it doesn't change the fact that the media posted the picture before Trump responded, and that there is nothing of substance about this story other than it validates your feelings. Sorry, but it's the truth.
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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>How is this relevant? Well, when was crowd size ever a story?

When Donald Trump made it one.

His inauguration crowd was, by any measure, large. There were plenty of people there. So it wasn't bigger than Obama's. Who cares?

Trump, that's who. He has tweeted over and over about it. He stood in front of a wall honoring the CIA agents who died in service to their country and whined about it. He put a picture in the White House that he claims "proves" it was larger.

And his fans are following his lead. Look at Facebook; they've been going on for the past week about it.

So you are right; it's not a story. And once Trump stops making it one, it will go away.

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billvon

>How is this relevant? Well, when was crowd size ever a story?

When Donald Trump made it one.

His inauguration crowd was, by any measure, large. There were plenty of people there. So it wasn't bigger than Obama's. Who cares?

Trump, that's who. He has tweeted over and over about it. He stood in front of a wall honoring the CIA agents who died in service to their country and whined about it. He put a picture in the White House that he claims "proves" it was larger.

And his fans are following his lead. Look at Facebook; they've been going on for the past week about it.

So you are right; it's not a story. And once Trump stops making it one, it will go away.



Maybe, maybe not. Like I said, the purpose of the story is to attack Trump. It's like catnip to the media. They can't help it.

Once again, how does this effect the average person? It doesn't. Meanwhile, Trump has promised to repeal 75% of the regulations on business while handing a lot of the EPA pink slips. We'll see what happens.

Follow the story that makes you feel good, don't worry about what's happening in America.
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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it doesn't change the fact that the media posted the picture before Trump responded,



Eh? How could it be otherwise?

Once again, I am left questioning your understanding of the linear flow of time:S

Quote

and that there is nothing of substance about this story other than it validates your feelings.



Everyone agrees that the initial story was of trivial importance (although it was warranted as a response to Trump's own insistence upon the importance of the yuuuge crowds he claimed to draw at every stage of the campaign, and that he would draw at his Inauguration). If Trump hadn't flipped his lid like the spoiled toddler he is, the story would have remained a brief and trivial side note. But he did, so it didn't. That's not the media's fault, that's Trump's fault.


The media has done absolutely nothing wrong here. Every single part of this story is an entirely justifiable response to Trump's own statements and stated priorities. There is nothing of substance to your moaning, and no reason for it than to defend a guy with an R next to his name. Sorry, but that is the truth.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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This Fresh Air story is partially relevant to this thread.

Part of the "Alt Fact" problem is self inflicted by selecting the wrong leaders, but part of it comes from leaders of other countries. Putin in particular, but really any authoritarian leader that wants to control a population will do this.

The story below is about how and why Putin would wants to interfere in the western liberal order by manipulating media/social media, and what he and his has to gain from it.

NPR Fresh Air
Journalist: Russians Interference is an Assault on the Western Liberal Order

http://www.npr.org/2017/01/26/511786803/journalist-russias-interference-is-an-assault-on-the-western-liberal-order

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Like I said, the purpose of the story is to attack Trump.



The purpose of the story was to respond to Trumps own statements. Weeks before the Inauguration Trump was wasting his time boasting to the media that there would be "an unbelievable, perhaps record-setting turnout".

As you rightly say, he's trying to do a shitload of big, important things in a short space of time, supported by cabinet appointments with zero experience in their relevant fields and he was and is chronically distracting himself by trying to persuade everyone that reality isn't real. He doesn't need any prompting from the media to get bogged down in trying to prove that everything he's ever done is the best that anyone's ever done it. He can't help himself.

So why aren't you angry at him?:|

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Follow the story that makes you feel good, don't worry about what's happening in America.


If you think that no-one is talking about the other crazy shit that Trump is doing, it really just goes to show that you aren't paying attention to what's going on outside this story.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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How is this relevant? Well, when was crowd size ever a story?



Trump set this up for himself. Well before the event he was bragging that it was going to be the biggest ever. HE made it important, his whining about the coverage made the coverage important. It is only a story because Trump turned it into one.

The main reason for larger crowds at Obama's inauguration is the make up of the DC population. It is largely black people, and they were rightfully excited about the event. So many of them made the easy trip.

But the narcissist in chief can not allow himself to accept that. Therefore he can not allow it to be reported. He really believes it is a lie. And THAT is the scary part. Trump is a very flawed man.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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>Maybe, maybe not. Like I said, the purpose of the story is to attack Trump.

Trump STARTED the story, and he is the reason it is continuing. So it's intended purpose can't be to attack him (unless he's some sort of masochist.)

But it does raise important journalistic questions. Do reporters have any responsibility to point out what is true and what isn't, or do they just blindly report what they are told? If they know their questions will bother someone, do they have an obligation to not ask them, so they are not upset? Is being "politically correct" more important than the truth?

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jakee

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it doesn't change the fact that the media posted the picture before Trump responded,



Eh? How could it be otherwise?

Once again, I am left questioning your understanding of the linear flow of time:S

Quote

and that there is nothing of substance about this story other than it validates your feelings.



Everyone agrees that the initial story was of trivial importance (although it was warranted as a response to Trump's own insistence upon the importance of the yuuuge crowds he claimed to draw at every stage of the campaign, and that he would draw at his Inauguration). If Trump hadn't flipped his lid like the spoiled toddler he is, the story would have remained a brief and trivial side note. But he did, so it didn't. That's not the media's fault, that's Trump's fault.


The media has done absolutely nothing wrong here. Every single part of this story is an entirely justifiable response to Trump's own statements and stated priorities. There is nothing of substance to your moaning, and no reason for it than to defend a guy with an R next to his name. Sorry, but that is the truth.


You can't even see that you are justifying a story that takes away time from real stories. The Media is going with this just like you are. You just can't help it can you? It's not about what is good for the country, it's about you being right at all costs.

It's why I picked this story in my original reply to Phill111. Zero substance, yet the media, and you guys, can't let go. Your ego won't let you until you can get someone to tell you "your right".

So let's say I tell you your right? Then what? What prize do you win? How will it make things better? What knowledge will be gained that will better America? What Policy are you now wiser on?

Yet for some reason the media won't let it go. Your response is classic. "Trump keeps making it a story."

If I was Trump I would get as much mileage out of it as I could. Keep the Main stream media chasing it's tail. Good luck fellas.:ph34r:
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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You can't even see that you are justifying a story that takes away time from real stories.




Once again, so you might understand. The story is not about the size of the crowd. The story is that the POTUS is such a narcissistic insecure man that it matters so much to him.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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jgoose71

You can't even see that you are justifying a story that takes away time from real stories.



And you are defending a man who is taking his time and his staff's time away from real governance in order to perpetuate this story. Can't you see that?

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It's not about what is good for the country, it's about you being right at all costs.


Fortunately for the country, the amount of time I spend discussing this topic has zero effect on it, good or bad. Unfortunately for the country, the amount of time Trump and his staff spend on it does have an effect. The extent to which Trump and his staff demonstrate that they are willing to brazenly lie to the American people does have an effect.

Once again I ask, why are you criticizing the wrong people?

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So let's say I tell you your right? Then what? What prize do you win? How will it make things better? What knowledge will be gained that will better America? What Policy are you now wiser on?



Ummmm, ok. If you're saying those are the criteria for posting here now, let's apply the standard to you first. What are you gaining by wasting your time telling me I'm wrong?

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Yet for some reason the media won't let it go. Your response is classic. "Trump keeps making it a story."


Again, it's relevant for two reasons. One, you're angry at the time being wasted on the story, so you should be angry at Trump. Two, you wrongly claimed that Trump didn't start or perpetuate the story, a direct response to that is justified.

Unless you're desperate for me to tell you that you're right... but what would that gain you?:D
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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AlanS

I do thing this talk of "alternate facts" and "fake news" is partially relevant to this great Fresh Air story.

Part of the "Alt Fact" problem is self inflicted by selecting the wrong leaders, but part of it comes from leaders of other countries. Putin in particular, but really any authoritarian leader that wants to control a population will do this.

The story below is about how and why Putin would want to interfere in the Western Liberal Order by manipulating media/social media, and what he and his has to gain from it.

NPR Fresh Air
Journalist: Russians Interference is an Assault on the Western Liberal Order

http://www.npr.org/2017/01/26/511786803/journalist-russias-interference-is-an-assault-on-the-western-liberal-order



Good story, thx

"On the morning after Donald Trump’s inauguration, acting National Park Service director Michael T. Reynolds received an extraordinary summons: The new president wanted to talk to him.

In a Saturday phone call, Trump personally ordered Reynolds to produce additional photographs of the previous day’s crowds on the Mall, according to three individuals who have knowledge of the conversation. The president believed that the photos might prove that the media had lied in reporting that attendance had been no better than average.

Trump also expressed anger over a retweet sent from the agency’s account, in which side-by-side photographs showed far fewer people at his swearing-in than had shown up to see Barack Obama’s inauguration in 2009."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-pressured-park-service-to-back-up-his-claims-about-inauguration-crowd/2017/01/26/12a38cb8-e3fc-11e6-ba11-63c4b4fb5a63_story.html?utm_term=.18c3c4a01735

Britain's coverage of the same story today:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/26/donald-trump-inauguration-crowd-size-national-parks-photos

On a separate issue I'm somewhat surprised that the British PM. Theresa May wore a skirt to the meeting with trump. Was that not somewhat reckless given trumps admitted history of sex assaults? trump's admitted following of twitter:

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/529816/Twitter-bonkers-Theresa-May-cleavage-boobs-Prime-Minister-Number-10-Downing-Street-London

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How can you defend a president that lies day in and day out? It is absolutely terrifying that the most powerful man in the world has such a loose grip on reality.

3 million "illegal voters" and he wants an investigation, yet we need to all just get over Russian involvement in attempting to sway the election? Dude, seriously? This man obviously suffers from a textbook case of Narcissism, all he cares about is Trump.

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