Charlotte NC protests

[kelpdiver 2]

SkyDekker

In Canada I am relatively sure that holding a gun and refusing to drop it is not enough grounds for deadly force. I think the perpetrator would actually have to start pointing it at people.

We tend not to allow executions for simply holding objects, there has to be an action associated with it.

You should probably look into it further. It doesn't stand up to reason. I would hope Canada doesn't intend to sacrifice cops and citizens due to a lack of common knowledge about guns.

A person holding a gun can turn and fire it multiple times before you can react, let alone stop the threat. That person represents a clear and present danger. It's very clearly demonstrated on a range - I witnessed a good example at a defensive shooting class. So if you choose to wait, you're are taking a risk.

So a LEO faced with a person committing a criminal act (whether or not smoking weed should be, it is in NC) holding a gun can reasonably presume that person doesn't want to be arrested and will use force to prevent it.

Obviously the scenario would change with that book story line, but it's quickly fading as plausible.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

kelpdiver

***

In Canada I am relatively sure that holding a gun and refusing to drop it is not enough grounds for deadly force. I think the perpetrator would actually have to start pointing it at people.

We tend not to allow executions for simply holding objects, there has to be an action associated with it.

You should probably look into it further. It doesn't stand up to reason. I would hope Canada doesn't intend to sacrifice cops and citizens due to a lack of common knowledge about guns.

A person holding a gun can turn and fire it multiple times before you can react, let alone stop the threat. That person represents a clear and present danger. It's very clearly demonstrated on a range - I witnessed a good example at a defensive shooting class. So if you choose to wait, you're are taking a risk.

So a LEO faced with a person committing a criminal act (whether or not smoking weed should be, it is in NC) holding a gun can reasonably presume that person doesn't want to be arrested and will use force to prevent it.

Obviously the scenario would change with that book story line, but it's quickly fading as plausible.

In The Netherlands officers are required to try and aim to wound in stead of kill.

The whole question is around where you "slide the line" on the risk continuum. In the US that line is much, much closer to the LEO. In many other countries that line is much further removed.

[DJL 232]

But you're assuming that someone holding a gun is inherently a threat. The police stated that they saw the blunt as only a secondary issue (You'll see or smell weed all day long walking around certain sections of tow). Seeing the gun gave them cause to investigate/talk to him but without any knowledge of him he's just a person in legal possession of a firearm who they saw rolling what could be a marijuana cigarette, something punishable in NC by a max misdemeanor of $200 and 30 days in jail. The stakes aren't just automatically raised because someone doing something illegal has a gun that isn't being used to perpetrate the crime. You cannot reasonable presume that someone is going to go down shooting for the crime of getting high.

Next, it took them 10 seconds to shoot him after he got out of the car with the gun in his hands. He slowly got out of his car, slowly backed away from them and made no motion to raise the gun. The threat neither increased nor decreased in that time period. The gun was in plain view, unlike when he was in the car. If holding a gun is such an imminent threat then why didn't they shoot him sooner, why wait 10 seconds after which nothing had changed and all he was doing was holding a weapon with four police guns pointed at him.

My untrained opinion is that this is a tough one to call but I thought by now we'd get a statement that the cop followed police training and it's OK to shoot someone because they don't put a gun down fast enough.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[kelpdiver 2]

SkyDekker

In The Netherlands officers are required to try and aim to wound in stead of kill.

I cannot confirm this - please cite. It would be ridiculously stupid for numerous reasons:
1- if deadly force is warranted, wounding the suspect doesn't eliminate the threat - even shots that will be fatal don't preclude the suspect continuing to fire.
2- shooting at the femoral or brachial artery is hardly safe
3- accuracy in said situations is not great - most cops have a hard enough time hitting center mass
4- reduced accuracy means more rounds down range.

https://www.pfoa.co.uk/110/shooting-to-wound
The citation is actually from Minnesota, but in a UK Police Association. It came from my attempt to find a hit against "In The Netherlands officers are required to try and aim to wound in stead of kill."

Good luck trying to objectively counter it.

[kelpdiver 2]

DJL

But you're assuming that someone holding a gun is inherently a threat.

No assumption here - someone holding a gun (normal grip, finger near trigger - is inherently a threat. Someone who continues to do so in the face of LEOs shouting 'drop the gun' is an immediate threat.

Quote

My untrained opinion is that this is a tough one to call but I thought by now we'd get a statement that he followed police training and it's OK to shoot someone because they don't put a gun down fast enough.

Their refusals to provide the video evidence is horseshit and raises fair doubt about their accounting of the event. And getting tired of body cams not being active...

OTOH, it sure looks like people have been rioting for a week on a false narrative. One person died in those protests....and funny enough, I don't see the media rushing to investigate and publicize the emerging details about his illegal gun ownership, and alleged purchasing of the gun found on the scene.

[skycop 0]

Quote

In Canada I am relatively sure that holding a gun and refusing to drop it is not enough grounds for deadly force. I think the perpetrator would actually have to start pointing it at people.

That is complete and utter bullshit.

Quote

We tend not to allow executions for simply holding objects, there has to be an action associated with it.

The "object" is a firearm, I also said enough to justify deadly force, not necessarily use it. HOWEVER after refusing numerous commands to drop the weapon, any furtive movement is a genuine threat.
Officers are not going to get shot, just so you think it's fair. There is no such thing as a fair fight, let alone a gunfight.

Why not just say the guy made a bad choice, and paid the price.

However you're such a zealot you won't even concede that, even with the evidence staring you right in the face.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[normiss 622]

Why not just say he had a mental issue and the response was incorrect for that type of situation?

However you're such a zealot you won't even concede that, even with the evidence staring you right in the face.

[skycop 0]

A gun..........A GUN...................

A man with a mental condition, that has a GUN is an imminent threat. If he didn't have the GUN I'd agree.
I'm trained in CIT, I deal with mentally ill people often, do you?

As it turns out, the man had engaged in violent acts previously, was in possession of a stolen gun, and was a convicted felon. Now the officers didn't know that at the time, just like they didn't know he had a TBI from an accident.

What they did know was he exited a car with a GUN, and refused commands to drop the GUN while still moving away.

This is prolly the silliest discussion I've had in a long time.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[normiss 622]

Which is prolly why these incidents continue to happen.

I'm still waiting for proof it was a gun, but I've been pretty the past few days and may have missed any updates since the chief refused to confirm that.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

Quote

I cannot confirm this - please cite.

My aunt is a police officer in The Netherlands.

Quote

Good luck trying to objectively counter it.

Why would it be on me to counter it? Did I indicate I prefer the Dutch regulations over US or Canadian regulations?

Personally I think shooting to aim is indeed ridiculously stupid and had a long discussion about it at some point with my aunt. But it is still what is required of them.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

Quote

A gun..........A GUN...................

A man with a mental condition, that has a GUN is an imminent threat.

As you know mental conditions are not always readily recognizable.

Second, there argument on this website generally is that a gun is just an object and that fear of this object makes one rather stupid.

Quote

This is prolly the silliest discussion I've had in a long time

Maybe for you, but as I have indicated in at least some other countries the sequence of events you list may not be enough for deadly force.

[normiss 622]

Another guy with mental issues was gunned down in California, very similar with the family there telling cops the situation.
They didn't listen there either.
Appears the dude was simply copying the cop in front of him.

By all accounts it would appear we have a solution for mental illness.

[DJL 232]

Quote

No assumption here - someone holding a gun (normal grip, finger near trigger - is inherently a threat. Someone who continues to do so in the face of LEOs shouting 'drop the gun' is an immediate threat.

Then why didn't they shoot him immediately? They had been yelling at him while he was in the car, they were yelling at him as he got out of the car, they were yelling at him as he backed away with his armed at his sides and they shot him...because the Jeopardy music stopped playing?

I'm not downplaying the risk of him suddenly lifting the gun and firing but nothing changed in that entire encounter that made the risk to the officers increase or decrease at any given point. The cop just decided to shoot him.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[DJL 232]

I think this guy was a bit zooted after smoking the blunt. Drugs and firearms don't mix, that was about #6 in bad decisions he made in this encounter.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[normiss 622]

More so when you're already insane.

If you're incapable of making decisions, I'd think 6 might be low.
I can't imagine what it's like dealing with and of the three from a cop perspective.
Drugs, weapons, mental issues.

[DJL 232]

Unfortunately, for their justification, the cops on the scene didn't know any of this and all they saw was someone not responding to commands.

His wife, however had previously reported on her domestic report that he was in possession of a 9mm. Although it's quite unlikely that anyone would've put 2 and 2 together that he wasn't allowed to own a firearm.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[normiss 622]

The same wife screaming at the cops telling them what the actual situation is?

Community policing is a long lost skill it seems.

When I had interactions with cops as an ornery kid (I had a motorcycle in high school - I'll just start with that), the worst was to crest the hill to the house only to see a cop car in our driveway, cop and dad chatting.....damn.
Getting grounded from my motorcycle.
Again.


They knew the neighborhoods, the citizens, the kids, our names, our behaviors.
Must just be white privilege.

[DJL 232]

Yeah, instead they came at this guy and starting wailing on his car window like it was a SWAT raid.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[kallend 1,623]

skycop

A gun..........A GUN...................

A man with a mental condition, that has a GUN is an imminent threat. If he didn't have the GUN I'd agree.
I'm trained in CIT, I deal with mentally ill people often, do you?

.

Yet a lot of gun enthusiasts object strongly to any laws that make it more difficult for mentally ill people to get guns (it is trivially easy right now).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Coreeece 2]

DJL

His wife, however had previously reported on her domestic report that he was in possession of a 9mm.

This is one of the issues I have when it comes to our country's lax enforcement of gun laws.

Here is an instance where a black woman finally built up the courage to report her husband after he kicked her, punched their 8 year old son and then threaten to shoot her with the same gun that was presumably recovered at the scene of the police shooting.

After she was granted the restraining order, her husband was also ordered to relinquish the illegally owed firearm. wtf? I mean really? Black women represent only 8% of the population yet account for nearly 30% of all domestic homicides. This risk dramatically increases when there have been prior threats, such as in this case.

The police should've arrested this POS and confiscated his 9mm, especially since it was illegally owned. If they did, then none of this probably would've ever happened - but instead, they just ask him nicely to turn it in - what a joke.

In the end tho, it's probably a good thing that the cops got his ass before he shot up his family.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[normiss 622]

Here's yet another daily dose:
Autistic kid murdered, deadly weapon my ass. That cop bailed out of his car and simply started shooting until his weapon was empty. 18 shots. Within 30 seconds.

Good thing this is so rare I suppose.

[DJL 232]

Coreeece

***His wife, however had previously reported on her domestic report that he was in possession of a 9mm.

This is one of the issues I have when it comes to our country's lax enforcement of gun laws.

Here is an instance where a black woman finally built up the courage to report her husband after he kicked her, punched their 8 year old son and then threaten to shoot her with the same gun that was presumably recovered at the scene of the police shooting.

After she was granted the restraining order, her husband was also ordered to relinquish the illegally owed firearm. wtf? I mean really? Black women represent only 8% of the population yet account for nearly 30% of all domestic homicides. This risk dramatically increases when there have been prior threats, such as in this case.

The police should've arrested this POS and confiscated his 9mm, especially since it was illegally owned. If they did, then none of this probably would've ever happened - but instead, they just ask him nicely to turn it in - what a joke.

In the end tho, it's probably a good thing that the cops got his ass before he shot up his family.

You have to remember the level of funding that supports most police stations and courts. Most 911 centers are on shoestring budgets and don't even have something on par with a single smart phone to send or receive location data. Just because she filed it doesn't mean it would get into someone's hands who actually looked at it twice. I presume she went to the court to ask for the restraining order and when she cancelled it a week later that was the end of it.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

normiss

Here's yet another daily dose:
Autistic kid murdered, deadly weapon my ass. That cop bailed out of his car and simply started shooting until his weapon was empty. 18 shots. Within 30 seconds.

Good thing this is so rare I suppose.

Let's see:

"We decided to pull him over because of outstanding warrants"

Except he didn't have any.

"He rammed our car with his"

Except there was no damage.

"We were in fear for our lives because he had used his car as a weapon"

Except he was out of his car with his hands raised.

And it took SEVEN MINUTES to check the kid in the car.

And the cops wonder why people don't trust them.

HOW LONG have they gotten away with this sort of thing?
How many of the "justified" shootings in the past were no different that this one?
Except for the video evidence which has become so very common.

Protect and serve my ass.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Coreeece 2]

DJL

******His wife, however had previously reported on her domestic report that he was in possession of a 9mm.

This is one of the issues I have when it comes to our country's lax enforcement of gun laws.

Here is an instance where a black woman finally built up the courage to report her husband after he kicked her, punched their 8 year old son and then threaten to shoot her with the same gun that was presumably recovered at the scene of the police shooting.

After she was granted the restraining order, her husband was also ordered to relinquish the illegally owed firearm. wtf? I mean really? Black women represent only 8% of the population yet account for nearly 30% of all domestic homicides. This risk dramatically increases when there have been prior threats, such as in this case.

The police should've arrested this POS and confiscated his 9mm, especially since it was illegally owned. If they did, then none of this probably would've ever happened - but instead, they just ask him nicely to turn it in - what a joke.

In the end tho, it's probably a good thing that the cops got his ass before he shot up his family.

You have to remember the level of funding that supports most police stations and courts. Most 911 centers are on shoestring budgets and don't even have something on par with a single smart phone to send or receive location data. Just because she filed it doesn't mean it would get into someone's hands who actually looked at it twice. I presume she went to the court to ask for the restraining order and when she cancelled it a week later that was the end of it.

One of the reasons black women are over represented when it comes to domestic homicide is because of their reluctance to report prior abuse - but regardless, there was still an order for him to turn in the illegal weapon - so it WAS looked at twice. The police should have been ordered to confiscate the gun, not just for her safety and that of the public - but who knows if that gun could've been used to solve other homicides.

The lack of a budget is a lame excuse - these things should be a priority.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[kelpdiver 2]

Coreeece

Here is an instance where a black woman finally built up the courage to report her husband after he kicked her, punched their 8 year old son and then threaten to shoot her with the same gun that was presumably recovered at the scene of the police shooting.

No, the gun recovered was a .380, stolen in a home burglary and allegedly sold to the deceased by the burglar. Cops say it has his fingerprints and blood on the weapon. Were he alone, one might rationalize these details as a setup by the officers, but the difficulty increases substantially with the presence of the wife.

And Kallend, I'm interested to hear what legislation might have prevented this alleged gun transfer - it already involved multiple felonies. Like this whole incident, it's not a very good case example.