Charlotte NC protests

[kelpdiver 2]

billvon

Exactly. And alive is very different than dead. And because there is a very big difference between the two, there is a lot of interest in reducing the ~30,000 incidents every year here in the US where a gun is involved in moving people from the "living" category into the "dead" category.

Since our suicide rate is about 25% lower than the global average, and below most of Europe and especially Japan, I'm not going to spend any time worried about the 20k suicides via gun.

And since as I've noted, the criminal element of San Francisco is just as effective at killing people with knives, I'm going to remain concerned about why killings occur and how to stop them, not worry so much about the methodology. Only in a delusional mind does it make sense to tackle the problem by focusing so much energy on the weapon (long rifle) used least often.

[kelpdiver 2]

***. It's that simple. If you sleep with a weapon nearby that is the weapon that is by far the most likely one to kill your wife. Or you for that matter.
***

And the one most likely to defend either of us. But most liikely it will spend its entire existence doing little besides occasional trips to the range.

As I said, if you're going to rely on Kellerman for your arguments, you're on a fool's errand.

[gowlerk 1,912]

Quote

And since as I've noted, the criminal element of San Francisco is just as effective at killing people with knives

Most murders are not done by people we normally call "the criminal element". They are done by angry distraught spouses, and other family members, friends, and sometimes raging people that feel insulted or cheated. Knives will never be as effective at killing as firearms. And knives have many other uses. Guns only have one use. Killing people.

Even Billy Lyons was friends with Stagger Lee before that terrible poker game.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[gowlerk 1,912]

Quote

As I said, if you're going to rely on Kellerman for your arguments, you're on a fool's errand.

Who is Kellerman? If you mean John Kallend, I'm not relying on him at all. But I truly am not sure what you are talking about.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[kelpdiver 2]

pchapman

What was the source? I'd like to check out the details further. Sorry if I missed it somewhere, even doing a quick search on the thread.

It came from http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/why-canada-has-a-gun-problem/article29642837/, though it was more focused on the rather high suicide rate by gun, which as I just noted, I don't particularly agree with.

Its a bit at odds with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate which shows France and Germany with much lower rates, but confirms the overall that the EU nations tend to be significantly lower.

And yes, being 2x some of them is still hardly bad. It's the overall murder rate that is less great.

(to our citation troll - take notes!)

[kelpdiver 2]

gowlerk

Quote

As I said, if you're going to rely on Kellerman for your arguments, you're on a fool's errand.

Who is Kellerman? If you mean John Kallend, I'm not relying on him at all. But I truly am not sure what you are talking about.

Did you make up " If you sleep with a weapon nearby that is the weapon that is by far the most likely one to kill your wife. "

Or do you have support for this claim? It's a classic gun control lie ("you're 44 times more likely to be killed with your gun than to kill an intruder").

[billvon 2,400]

>I'm not going to spend any time worried about the 20k suicides via gun.

Most people don't think that 20K avoidable deaths a year are OK.

> I'm going to remain concerned about why killings occur and how to stop them, not
>worry so much about the methodology. Only in a delusional mind does it make
>sense to tackle the problem by focusing so much energy on the weapon (long rifle)
>used least often.

I think we should tackle the problem by focusing on ALL firearm deaths, not just those caused by long rifles. Indeed, since handguns are the most commonly used weapons in homicides, it would make more sense to start there.

[mirage62 0]

Someone mention the number of suicides each year (20k?). I bet we all agree that's a number we'd like to see come down - but one side just thinks gun control will fix it, the other thinks it doesn't matter. How about we fund mental health services in this country?

For most of the posters here - it's "my way or the high way" really just the same old tired shit.

I especially love the Canadians and the folks from England blathering about their countries. Let me say they are great countries, really I mean that. But they aren't America. We aren't perfect and we can learn....but a hand full of people on the anti gun side here seem to think that "if we were just like them we would be fine"

America is different, we desire a lot more separation from our government than many countries - and that's changing and one day it may just enough to really have different (i.e. more Canadian) rules about guns - a significant part of the population seems to want it - BUT no where near a majority.

I understand that people from other courtiers are just as happy as they can be with their laws. Good for them. It doesn't make it right for here.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[billvon 2,400]

>Someone mention the number of suicides each year (20k?). I bet we all agree
>that's a number we'd like to see come down - but one side just thinks gun control
>will fix it, the other thinks it doesn't matter. How about we fund mental health
>services in this country?

I think we should do both. Make it harder for mentally ill people to get weapons, and make sure they can get the help they need.

[kelpdiver 2]

gowlerk

Quote

And since as I've noted, the criminal element of San Francisco is just as effective at killing people with knives

Most murders are not done by people we normally call "the criminal element". They are done by angry distraught spouses, and other family members, friends, and sometimes raging people that feel insulted or cheated.

Where? In Canada?

In America, most murders are criminals killing criminals.

Old, and likely partisan source, but full of citations:
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvmurd.html

more recent - few (recovered) guns confirmed as legal purchases
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/oct/05/joe-scarborough/msnbcs-joe-scarborough-tiny-fraction-crimes-commit/

most victims also criminals:
http://www.wnd.com/2013/03/most-murder-victims-in-big-cities-have-criminal-record/

You might be fixated on a frequently cited statement that victims knew their killer in a majority of the time. And yes, when the relationship is known (55.9% of the time, a slight majority (54.3%) knew the person. But bear in mind that rival gang members qualify as an acquaintance, and .543 x .559 = only 30.4%.

[url]https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded/expanded-homicide-data[url]

Also - half of murder victims are black, and (where known) 52.4 of the killers were black. For your thesis to be true (most murders not committed by criminals), blacks in America would have to be substantially more blood thirsty and prone to violence than everyone else, not due to economics or circumstance, but by nature. I'm fairly sure this is not the case, personally.

Quote

Knives will never be as effective at killing as firearms. And knives have many other uses. Guns only have one use. Killing people.

They've proven quite effective with double digit deaths within my city this year. One or two unarmed citizens against one to ten thugs with a knife- if they want to kill, they will succeed. And we've seen too much of it. They lack range, that's the difference.

Guns are used for:
1- self defense - 100k to million+ times per year. Even if you want to take the lower figure, that's sufficient to disprove your last false claim
2- hunting for food, occasionally for human protection. More historical.
3- sporting (target practice, etc)

You posted a lot of whoppers in this one.

[kelpdiver 2]

billvon

>I'm not going to spend any time worried about the 20k suicides via gun.

Most people don't think that 20K avoidable deaths a year are OK.

Are they avoidable? Again, our rate is 25% lower than the global average and 35% lower than gunfree Japan. And short of elimination of gun rights, what changes would actually improve on that 20k figure?

It's hard to view the inclusion of suicides as anything but number booster by gun control advocates who seek to inflate their figures. Kellerman's was the most outrageous example - of his 44x more likely to kill a family member, 43 were suicides. He and his followers of course never mention that detail. It's not by accident.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

Quote

And since as I've noted, the criminal element of San Francisco is just as effective at killing people with knives, I'm going to remain concerned about why killings occur and how to stop them,

As noted before, this is made up bullshit.

Murders are trending down significantly compared to 2015.

Stop making up shit to support your argument.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

Quote

called out for citing hearsay as fact

That's not what you did. You stated it must be made up/lie/ bullshit. I didn't present it as fact, I clearly indicated where the information came from.

So we went from you claiming it was bullshit to now correctly stating it was hearsay. Took you a while.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

Quote

Again, our rate is 25% lower than the global average and 35% lower than gunfree Japan.

Japan has a long standing cultural affinity with suicide which is very well documented. Comparing your suicide rate to Japan is therefor disingenuous, assuming you were aware of it.

[mirage62 0]

Quote

I think we should do both. Make it harder for mentally ill people to get weapons, and make sure they can get the help they need

That's all sweet Bill but frankly how many on and on and on threads have you posted in about gun control but yet the passion for mental health resources seems to get lost? Frankly America has gotten to be so divided by politics that we can't see five feet in front of us.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[billvon 2,400]

>Are they avoidable? (suicides)

Yes. Suicide rates are lower in states with lower gun ownership rates. (Harvard ICRC.) Good example by Dr. Matthew Miller (Harvard School of Public Health) - "If even one in 10 of the approximately 22,000 persons who attempted suicide with firearms in 2010 (the 19,932 who died and the approximately 2,000 who survived) substituted drugs or cutting, there would have been approximately 1,900 fewer suicide deaths." 24 separate studies have shown that having an accessible gun in your home increases the chance of a suicide in that home.

Does just removing guns work? One suicide prevention effort (by the Henry Ford Health System) tried that. They identified at-risk patients in their patient pool, spoke to them and their families directly and strongly recommending that all guns be removed from their homes.

Before the effort, suicide rates were 89 out of 100,000 (remember, this was already an at-risk population.) After the effort, the rate was zero. One of the doctors involved said that based on what patients told him, the reason for this was that "suicide is often impulsive and that imposing even a short delay can allow the impulse to pass."

Do laws have an effect? One study by John Hopkins indicated that when a state (Connecticut) started requiring a permit to purchase, gun sales declined and suicide rates went down by 15.4%. When another state (Missouri) dropped their requirement for a permit, more guns were sold and suicide rates went up by 16.1%.

> Again, our rate is 25% lower than the global average and 35% lower than
>gunfree Japan.

And higher than Venezuela, Austria, Thailand, Sweden, Ireland, Australia, Argentina, Canada, New Zealand, Switzerland, Italy, the UK, Denmark, Norway, Portugal, the Netherlands, Turkey, Israel . . . of the 170 countries the WHO rates for suicide risk, only 49 are at higher risk for suicide.

Does that mean that there's some kind of epidemic going on here? No. But it does mean that we have a lot of countries out there we could learn from when it comes to reducing suicide risk for our own citizens.

>And short of elimination of gun rights, what changes would actually improve on
>that 20k figure?


From a study by Leiwecki and Miller, 2013:
===========
In accordance with the medical evidence, we recommend a waiting period for purchasing handguns with a requirement for a permit or license that includes firearm safety training. For a suicidal person who does not already own a handgun, a delay in the purchase of one allows time for suicidal impulses to pass or diminish. Safe gun storage for all households delays or prevents access to a gun for a suicidal person living with a gun owner. Federal laws restricting the sale of handguns and handgun ammunition to minors should be implemented and enforced in all states. Firearms should not be sold to “prohibited persons” at high risk of harming themselves and others. Some states already mandate such measures. An opportunity to survive a transient suicidal impulse should be provided to individuals in all states.

The political, philosophical, and constitutional objections to firearm regulations, even those as modest as suggested here, cannot be minimized. Some would like to remove all firearm restrictions. We believe that reasonable people with diverse perspectives on firearm regulations have an imperative to discuss the benefits, risks, and responsibilities of firearm ownership, and to take action to minimize the risks. Different lengths of waiting periods and variations of permit or license requirements may have different levels of effectiveness depending on the locality and the population at risk. Well-designed long-term studies can evaluate these requirements so that appropriate regulatory modifications can be made in the future. However, meaningful regulations to restrict access to handguns are needed now, before more lives are unnecessarily lost. The public health benefit of preventing deaths due to impulsive suicide far outweighs the minimal inconvenience to those who do not intend to harm themselves or others.
===========

[billvon 2,400]

>That's all sweet Bill but frankly how many on and on and on threads have you
>posted in about gun control but yet the passion for mental health resources seems
>to get lost?

Because the threads about mental health resources very quickly devolve to how much Brenthutch (or someone) hates Obamacare. Keep in mind this is a predominantly right-wing board, so some topics don't get discussed as much.

[Bolas 5]

Quote

Well-designed long-term studies can evaluate these requirements so that appropriate regulatory modifications can be made in the future. However, meaningful regulations to restrict access to handguns are needed now, before more lives are unnecessarily lost.

Anyone for any sort of drug policy reform can tell you this doesn't happen, especially at the federal level.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[normiss 622]

Which drugs do we have a constitutional right to have?

[gowlerk 1,912]

Quote

America is different, we desire a lot more separation from our government than many countries - and that's changing and one day it may just enough to really have different (i.e. more Canadian) rules about guns - a significant part of the population seems to want it - BUT no where near a majority.

This is pretty much what I've been saying too. A small majority, but a majority nonetheless of Americans are willing to pay the price in blood that having firearms available as toys entails. Of that number of people only some will acknowledge the cost. Most will deny and obfuscate about it.

I like America. I am not afraid when I visit America. But I probably should be, at least some of the time.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[mirage62 0]

Given the number of people that have guns.... I don't think it's such a "small majority" then add the people who may not have a gun but really don't have a problem with gun ownership and there's a LOT of them ....and I say that's a lot of people.

I'd guess the press which gins the issue up and a small minority of very vocal anti- gun people are the other side.

Truthfully more of the people who support guns and are against guns will die of heart disease than being shot - A LOT MORE - yet where's the passion?

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[normiss 622]

Those gun owners don't typically kill others with their heart though.

Most of the folks I know support guns, while using some good laws and requirements.
There seems to be some areas that are simply not enforced as well as universal background checks - although there seems to be some differences in the agreements on those background checks and requirements.

[gowlerk 1,912]

Quote

Truthfully more of the people who support guns and are against guns will die of heart disease than being shot - A LOT MORE - yet where's the passion?

We need hearts. We don't need guns. And we spend a lot of money on researching and lowering heart disease rates. That's where the passion is. A lot of passion,

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjwqZHMvMLPAhWOsh4KHViHDVgQFgg2MAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fnews%2Fwonk%2Fwp%2F2016%2F06%2F29%2Famerican-gun-ownership-is-now-at-a-30-year-low%2F&usg=AFQjCNGNC5Egxz_X5JIbecIKamK4cUyA6w&bvm=bv.134495766,d.dmo


There is considerable support for gun control.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx


But overall, it is clear that the time is not right in America.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Bolas 5]

normiss

Which drugs do we have a constitutional right to have?

Do you really want to set thst precedent?

Quote

Well-designed long-term studies can evaluate these requirements so that appropriate regulatory modifications can be made in the future. However, meaningful regulations to restrict (freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom from self incrmination, etc) are needed now, before more lives are unnecessarily lost.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[skycop 0]

http://www.policeone.com/police-products/body-cameras/articles/228027006-Charlotte-police-release-full-body-cam-video-of-fatal-OIS/

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"