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nolhtairt

Aaaaaaand, its a Muslim D-bag

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kelpdiver

*** At this point each year within our borders there are more US citizens unjustifiably shot by police than there are US citizens killed by terrorist acts.



How many unjustifiable shootings can you cite? Not shootings, which we best know to be in the high hundreds per year. The (too high) number of actual police murders may well not exceed the number killed in SB.

San Francisco's board of supervisors had a day honoring Mario Woods who was shot by police, holding a knife. The fucker actually stabbed someone (random) with it shortly before. It was perfectly justified shooting to most citizens of SF. Multiple rounds of bean bags and pepper spray were used first.

That's very easy information to bring up. Glad you asked.
There are approximately 1000 people killed by police each year by police. Allen West, who you may know is fairly conservative sites that 70% are justifiable meaning that 300 deaths are not. I think that number of 300 people is high, other sources say that 91% are justifiable leaving 90 deaths per year. There are approximately 11 US Citizens (Not soldiers or those engaged in warfare) killed on average yearly in any 10 year period by acts of terrorism leaving out 9/11 fatalities. With them it's 172 deaths per year.

So a comparison of low vs high for unjustified police shootings: 90 deaths to 300 deaths. For terrorist deaths: 11 deaths to 172 deaths.

These numbers are not drawn up to prove some sort of perfect data point but to draw a comparison of rational fears and actual threats. Trump's platform and that of much of the GOP calls for an unprecedented departure from our Constitutional laws of equality in regards to religion and country of origin. In the meantime there is little or no outrage from the same group of people about the actual yearly death toll racked up by our own police. And we don't even need to shut the borders to address police shootings.

Hell, from the way the numbers play out it appears as though we should employ Middle Eastern immigrants as police officers since it appears that even those who intend to do us harm are doing a shitty job at killing us. They're like the fucking Storm Troopers of the bad guy world and can't hit a target.

I don't know what "SB" is. I don't know who Mario Woods is but I'm not going to talk about an allegory.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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From here:

Quote

In one handwritten message, Mr. Rahami pleads that he not be caught before carrying out his planned attacks.

“My heart I pray to the beautiful wise ALLAH,” he wrote. “To not take JIHAD away from. I beg.”

Elsewhere in the notebook, the complaint says, he refers to pipe bombs and pressure cookers as well as to shooting police officers.

Mr. Rahami writes of “killing the kuffar,” or unbelievers, and praises terrorist figures, including Anwar al-Awlaki, once Al Qaeda’s leading propagandist, who died in a drone strike in Yemen, as well as the soldier in the Fort Hood shooting, among the deadliest of the so-called lone wolf attacks inspired by Al Qaeda.



Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

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DJL


These numbers are not drawn up to prove some sort of perfect data point but to draw a comparison of rational fears and actual threats. Trump's platform and that of much of the GOP calls for an unprecedented departure from our Constitutional laws of equality in regards to religion and country of origin. In the meantime there is little or no outrage from the same group of people about the actual yearly death toll racked up by our own police. And we don't even need to shut the borders to address police shootings.

...

I don't know what "SB" is. I don't know who Mario Woods is but I'm not going to talk about an allegory.



I don't disagree with the conclusion, but think you made bad use of figures. Smoothing out to a 10 year interval seems to serve to mask the trend of the past few years, both here and elsewhere in the world. And that hurts the argument being made. Really, all you need to do is cite 20+k deaths to DUIs per year, and 10k domestic shootings and the 50-200 terrorist deaths per year pales.

San Bernadino had 14 deaths, 22 seriously wounded
Orlando (could question if this was truly ISIS related, rather than frustrated gay man) - 49 deaths
9/11 - immediate 2996 deaths - more in the aftermath. But single events are always problematic for statistics like /year.
If you started including events in Europe, then the numbers swell considerably.

So 11 per year is a false statistic. And if you did include 9/11 in a 10 year interval, it couldn't possibly be less than 299 per year, so I don't know how you could arrive at 172.

I cite Mario Woods in particular because many would claim his shooting as unjustified, just as they would try to do with the Ferguson one. Both are false, particularly when much more heinous, and clearly illegal shootings have occurred. I don't think it's legitimate to apply a 30% or even 10% WAG to the shooting count to measure unjustified shootings. If we applied a very strict definition of wrongful shooting as resulting in charges against the officer, how many cases are there? That would, IMO, be too strict a filter, but I can't determine a method beyond examination of each incident for the facts. Or a slightly lower threshold where the officer was sanctioned or reprimanded in some form?

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I was actually using a 20 year span with the numbers referencing terrorist killings. Of course a smaller span would cause 9/11 numbers to skew to a very high number, which is why I posted it both ways. Correcting a little bit, 13 per year without 9/11, 158 with.

https://www.start.umd.edu/pubs/START_AmericanTerrorismDeaths_FactSheet_Oct2015.pdf

Again, I'm seriously not going to have a discussion about statistics, I'm making a point about people losing their shit over the Muslim Hordes when there are many things within our borders that are actually unjustifiably or unnecessarily killing Americans. Hell, there are more skydiving fatalities in the US than there are victims of terrorist attacks.

Here's the article from AllenWest.com. I thought it was interesting to quote because he's a big go-to with Right Wing Conservatives and this article seems to say that a rate of 30% deaths is OK. Wow. I think we all know that 30% is probably way off.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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turtlespeed

So. Was Trump correct about his assumption about the bombers religion?



No, it's just irrelevant and counterproductive to both relations with Muslim immigrants and the investigation. Many cases in the past where even profilers came in and said to look for a specific type of person or even had an individual singled out just to discover we're barking up the wrong tree. At the Boston bombing a brown skinned person almost got attacked by a mob because everyone has the mentality, "Get the Middle Eastern Man".
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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DJL

I was actually using a 20 year span with the numbers referencing terrorist killings. Of course a smaller span would cause 9/11 numbers to skew to a very high number, which is why I posted it both ways. Correcting a little bit, 13 per year without 9/11, 158 with.



"There are approximately 11 US Citizens (Not soldiers or those engaged in warfare) killed on average yearly in any 10 year period by acts of terrorism leaving out 9/11 fatalities. With them it's 172 deaths per year. "

Quote


Again, I'm seriously not going to have a discussion about statistics,



You introduce bad statistics as the primary support of your argument and then say you're not going to have a discussion about statistics?

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kelpdiver

***I was actually using a 20 year span with the numbers referencing terrorist killings. Of course a smaller span would cause 9/11 numbers to skew to a very high number, which is why I posted it both ways. Correcting a little bit, 13 per year without 9/11, 158 with.



"There are approximately 11 US Citizens (Not soldiers or those engaged in warfare) killed on average yearly in any 10 year period by acts of terrorism leaving out 9/11 fatalities. With them it's 172 deaths per year. "

Quote


Again, I'm seriously not going to have a discussion about statistics,



You introduce bad statistics as the primary support of your argument and then say you're not going to have a discussion about statistics?

Yup. Because I wasn't trying to draw exact figures just show a comparison between numbers of people getting killed. I'm sorry that you care more about that than the people getting killed. So just leave out what you put in bold so it's just a yearly average and we'll say you win the internet today. ;)
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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DJL

***So. Was Trump correct about his assumption about the bombers religion?



No, it's just irrelevant and counterproductive to both relations with Muslim immigrants and the investigation. Many cases in the past where even profilers came in and said to look for a specific type of person or even had an individual singled out just to discover we're barking up the wrong tree.

In this case it wouldnt be barking up the wrong tree -- the attacker was clearly inspired by his religion to carry out the act.

In the long run, pussyfooting around the issue is less helpful than confronting it.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

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masterblaster72

******So. Was Trump correct about his assumption about the bombers religion?



No, it's just irrelevant and counterproductive to both relations with Muslim immigrants and the investigation. Many cases in the past where even profilers came in and said to look for a specific type of person or even had an individual singled out just to discover we're barking up the wrong tree.

In this case it wouldnt be barking up the wrong tree -- the attacker was clearly inspired by his religion to carry out the act.

In the long run, pussyfooting around the issue is less helpful than confronting it.

The attacker was inspired by Extremists/Terrorists who are Muslim, still not validation to make a test of faith for those seeking entry to the country. That what you have to confront. There are 3.3 million Muslims in the US, there are 1.6 Billion in the world.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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DJL

*********So. Was Trump correct about his assumption about the bombers religion?



No, it's just irrelevant and counterproductive to both relations with Muslim immigrants and the investigation. Many cases in the past where even profilers came in and said to look for a specific type of person or even had an individual singled out just to discover we're barking up the wrong tree.

In this case it wouldnt be barking up the wrong tree -- the attacker was clearly inspired by his religion to carry out the act.

In the long run, pussyfooting around the issue is less helpful than confronting it.

The attacker was inspired by Extremists/Terrorists who are Muslim, still not validation to make a test of faith for those seeking entry to the country. That what you have to confront. There are 3.3 million Muslims in the US, there are 1.6 Billion in the world.

Argumentum ad Populum.

I have copies of the Koran and Mein Kampf on the bookshelf in front of me at the moment; I am fine with denying entry to anyone who adheres to the teachings of either, for the exact same reasons.

FWIW, Mein Kampf ("that wretched book") has more to recommend it.

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I have copies of the Koran and Mein Kampf on the bookshelf in front of me at the moment; I am fine with denying entry to anyone who adheres to the teachings of either, for the exact same reasons.


Does that apply to the Bible and the Tanakh as well? You can find equally abhorrent teachings in all four.

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billvon

Quote

I have copies of the Koran and Mein Kampf on the bookshelf in front of me at the moment; I am fine with denying entry to anyone who adheres to the teachings of either, for the exact same reasons.


Does that apply to the Bible and the Tanakh as well? You can find equally abhorrent teachings in all four.



Most assuredly.

Most Parsha readings by any Rabbi worth his/her salt include discussions where the Patriarch in question was Mr. Bad Example.

As a family history of an amazingly dysfunctional extended family, it really covers a lot of dreadful behavior.

The Christian Scriptures are probably as insidious as is the Koran from a political standpoint. For example, Rome was unable to subjugate Ireland militarily, but managed to do with whiskey and a few priests what the Legions could not.

I am not recommending any other compendium of nonsense in lieu of the Koran or Mein Kampf, but single these out by virtue of their common source - a self aggrandizing psychopath. Muhammad was a world-class pervert, to boot.

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DJL

I was actually using a 20 year span with the numbers referencing terrorist killings. Of course a smaller span would cause 9/11 numbers to skew to a very high number, which is why I posted it both ways. Correcting a little bit, 13 per year without 9/11, 158 with.

https://www.start.umd.edu/pubs/START_AmericanTerrorismDeaths_FactSheet_Oct2015.pdf

Again, I'm seriously not going to have a discussion about statistics, I'm making a point about people losing their shit over the Muslim Hordes when there are many things within our borders that are actually unjustifiably or unnecessarily killing Americans. Hell, there are more skydiving fatalities in the US than there are victims of terrorist attacks.

Here's the article from AllenWest.com. I thought it was interesting to quote because he's a big go-to with Right Wing Conservatives and this article seems to say that a rate of 30% deaths is OK. Wow. I think we all know that 30% is probably way off.



If you use Allen West as a source, it's most likely a source of bogus information (aka lies): www.politifact.com/personalities/allen-west/statements/
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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masterblaster72

******So. Was Trump correct about his assumption about the bombers religion?



No, it's just irrelevant and counterproductive to both relations with Muslim immigrants and the investigation. Many cases in the past where even profilers came in and said to look for a specific type of person or even had an individual singled out just to discover we're barking up the wrong tree.

In this case it wouldnt be barking up the wrong tree -- the attacker was clearly inspired by his religion to carry out the act.

In the long run, pussyfooting around the issue is less helpful than confronting it.

Abortion clinic bombers have been inspired by their religion too. Would you like all Christians to be profiled on account of that?
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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DJL


Yup. Because I wasn't trying to draw exact figures just show a comparison between numbers of people getting killed. I'm sorry that you care more about that than the people getting killed. So just leave out what you put in bold so it's just a yearly average and we'll say you win the internet today. ;)



If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Serious - quit your whining for getting called out for shoveling shit. Somehow you missed the part when I defended the main thesis, and gave you non crappy data points to use instead. Upgrade.

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DJL

***So. Was Trump correct about his assumption about the bombers religion?



No, it's just irrelevant and counterproductive to both relations with Muslim immigrants and the investigation. Many cases in the past where even profilers came in and said to look for a specific type of person or even had an individual singled out just to discover we're barking up the wrong tree. At the Boston bombing a brown skinned person almost got attacked by a mob because everyone has the mentality, "Get the Middle Eastern Man".

So, it wasn't a bomb, and the suspect isn't Muslim?
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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kelpdiver

***
Yup. Because I wasn't trying to draw exact figures just show a comparison between numbers of people getting killed. I'm sorry that you care more about that than the people getting killed. So just leave out what you put in bold so it's just a yearly average and we'll say you win the internet today. ;)



If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Serious - quit your whining for getting called out for shoveling shit. Somehow you missed the part when I defended the main thesis, and gave you non crappy data points to use instead. Upgrade.


Haha, yeah, I figured posting data would result in more discussion of the data than anything about being scared of skittles...I mean people.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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turtlespeed

******So. Was Trump correct about his assumption about the bombers religion?



No, it's just irrelevant and counterproductive to both relations with Muslim immigrants and the investigation. Many cases in the past where even profilers came in and said to look for a specific type of person or even had an individual singled out just to discover we're barking up the wrong tree. At the Boston bombing a brown skinned person almost got attacked by a mob because everyone has the mentality, "Get the Middle Eastern Man".

So, it wasn't a bomb, and the suspect isn't Muslim?

And he had olive colored skin and black hair. Let's make sure we keep the list straight for future reference.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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kallend

***I was actually using a 20 year span with the numbers referencing terrorist killings. Of course a smaller span would cause 9/11 numbers to skew to a very high number, which is why I posted it both ways. Correcting a little bit, 13 per year without 9/11, 158 with.

https://www.start.umd.edu/pubs/START_AmericanTerrorismDeaths_FactSheet_Oct2015.pdf

Again, I'm seriously not going to have a discussion about statistics, I'm making a point about people losing their shit over the Muslim Hordes when there are many things within our borders that are actually unjustifiably or unnecessarily killing Americans. Hell, there are more skydiving fatalities in the US than there are victims of terrorist attacks.

Here's the article from AllenWest.com. I thought it was interesting to quote because he's a big go-to with Right Wing Conservatives and this article seems to say that a rate of 30% deaths is OK. Wow. I think we all know that 30% is probably way off.



If you use Allen West as a source, it's most likely a source of bogus information (aka lies): www.politifact.com/personalities/allen-west/statements/

The Allen West thing was more of a joke. He's the guy who Republicans reference when they're trying to blow everyone's mind that a black man is saying things they agree with. I saw that article and just thought...wow, they think 30% is OK.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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DJL

*********So. Was Trump correct about his assumption about the bombers religion?



No, it's just irrelevant and counterproductive to both relations with Muslim immigrants and the investigation. Many cases in the past where even profilers came in and said to look for a specific type of person or even had an individual singled out just to discover we're barking up the wrong tree. At the Boston bombing a brown skinned person almost got attacked by a mob because everyone has the mentality, "Get the Middle Eastern Man".

So, it wasn't a bomb, and the suspect isn't Muslim?

And he had olive colored skin and black hair. Let's make sure we keep the list straight for future reference.

You said, "No." Which is obviously false. You can't make up face that fit your wishful world. It makes you look foolish.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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