Ohio police officer kills black teenager 'who drew BB gun'

[gowlerk 1,901]

skycop

Quote

If it's predictable, explain carefully why cops in other first world nations are not killing people with such great regularity. Other countries have criminals too.

We've already had this conversation, many times.

No other free society on earth is as heavily armed as ours, like it or not. (With the possible exception of the Swiss).

I'll repeat this once again.
In my travels, all the cops I've met in other countries think American cops are nuts. Because our society is so heavily armed with weapons..................... and rights.

Absolutely. It's all just a part of the price y'all pay down there for your right to treat the tools of war as personal toys. The police assume everyone is armed because there is a good chance they are. This is not true in any other civilized nation.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[normiss 620]

Given the crime statistics between there and the US, wouldn't everyone?

[nolhtairt 0]

normiss

Given the crime statistics between there and the US, wouldn't everyone?

I don't have a problem living here in the states.

[jakee 1,254]

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Because our society is so heavily armed with weapons..................... and rights.

Funny thing is, a lot of your fellow apologists are happy to give up their real rights because of this.

It's been said on here several times that people should always follow any orders from a cop - even if those orders are illegal or infringe on their rights - because otherwise they might get shot and it'd be their own fault.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kelpdiver 2]

jakee

It's been said on here several times that people should always follow any orders from a cop - even if those orders are illegal or infringe on their rights - because otherwise they might get shot and it'd be their own fault.

That would be a bit of a distortion, Jake. 'Follow any order' != 'Avoid actions that could be seen as threatening.'

Pulling a black metal object out of your waistband...fail. Pull an actual bb gun out - suicide. Charge at a cop? These are all pretty obvious.

In the more courteous area - don't use your cell phone during a traffic stop. Ask before you reach into the glove or under your seat to get your wallet or registration. Perhaps you heard a bunch of cops got killed by snipers? And that's hardly the first time they've been killed during traffic stops.

If they ask to search, you don't have to say yes. If they insist on taking actions that may be improper - well, don't resist with force. I believe the ACLU has a runlist for how to behave. If the LEO oversteps, don't give them a free pass by acting badly as well. All things equal, the cop usually wins.

[gowlerk 1,901]

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All things equal, the cop usually wins.

True, and all things are far from equal. That's why the score is cop nearly always wins, even if it goes to court.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[jclalor 12]

skycop

Quote

If it's predictable, explain carefully why cops in other first world nations are not killing people with such great regularity. Other countries have criminals too.

We've already had this conversation, many times.

No other free society on earth is as heavily armed as ours, like it or not. (With the possible exception of the Swiss).

I'll repeat this once again.
In my travels, all the cops I've met in other countries think American cops are nuts. Because our society is so heavily armed with weapons..................... and rights.

Actually, the Swiss aren't armed nearly as well as you think.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/soldiers-can-keep-guns-at-home-but-not-ammo/970614

[skycop 0]

Quote

Actually, the Swiss aren't armed nearly as well as you think.

That's why I said possibly, I do know that there are a large amount of "assault rifles" kept at home by Swiss reservists.
Every time I'd travel by train in Switzerland there were several older guys, with rifles, traveling to training on the train.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[crapflinger2000 1]

Just some general observations on the concepts this brings to light:

1) I DO believe there is a problem with policing in America. Far too militarized. At some point the risk seems to have xferred from the police to the citizens. I believe we pay cops to do the right thing (i.e. NOT shoot unarmed people because they got scared) even if that means they might make the wrong decision and get shot because they were taking the time to figure it out. I am not speaking about someone dumb enough to wave around a bb gun... you do that in front of a cop its on you if you get blasted. But I am talking about "got shot because I did not announce I was going into the glove box for my registration". Any cop who blasts away in that context is usually a f*cking sh*tbag.

2) It seems that the concept that EVERY shooting of someone who turns out to not be armed is a "bad shoot" has taken root. Bullshit. If you are a 150 pound cop getting pummeled by a 280 pound dude, you have every right to shoot the motherf*cker. And not all of the unquestionably "bad shoots" (thinking about the BART cop incident for example) are not automatically about race. That cop plain and simple fucked up and meant to taser the guy. The concept that he intended to MURDER a guy on a platform full of people is laughable.

3) Point 2 brings up an issue that further drives us all into our respective corners. Police Unions refusing to admit there is a problem and calling every police shoot "good" gives rise to point 2. Similarly, BLM screaching about racist policing every time someone gets shot, regardless of context, drives people away from their POV. Either side taking an absolutist stance is idiotic.

4) There are UNQUESTIONABLY BAD SHOOTS documented out there. To straddle the races, I am particularly disturbed by the New Mexico shoot and the Walter Scott shoot. I will freely admit that anecdotally this seems to happen more to black people. Point being, see point 2. Media has latched onto these examples and unfairly painted with a broad brush that every time someone gets shot that is unarmed, it is AUTOMATICALLY a bad shoot.

5) Tasers - Use of a taser should be subject to the exact same use of force investigation that a shooting is. IMHO these tools were supposed to help prevent police shootings for guys swinging bats around. They appear to have become tools of poor policing. I am more scared of the prevalence (and increasing acceptance by the general population) of taser usage as a compliance tool. We've all seen videos of "if you don't get out of your car I will taze you". This attitude is furthering many cops' views that we MUST comply with their every order and escalating situations. It is helping slide us towards a police state. Cops need to get over the fact that if they tell someone to do something and they refuse, this "challenge to their authority" is not something that is worth escalating a routine interaction with a citizen into a resisting arrest charge.
In other words, be a big boy (or girl) and figure out how to accomplish what needs to be accomplished without escalating the situation even when dealing with an asshole. I fully support police departments mandating de-escalation training.

6) This is America... we have the right to bear arms. The concept that this makes cops jobs a lot more dangerous is something that I (just speaking for myself here) accept. That should NOT however justify the concept that we grant police more lattitude in shooting people because "he might have had a gun."

7) Cops are people... all are different. There are cops that truly just want to be a good sheepdog against the wolves out there, and those that were just picked on in high school and are on power trips. I wish I could say "weed out the latter", but I doubt if we got that selective we'd have as many cops as we need. You go to war with the army you got, not the one you want.

I have no solutions. Just throwing out my .02.

__________________________________________________
What would Vic Mackey do?

[kelpdiver 2]

crapflinger2000

And not all of the unquestionably "bad shoots" (thinking about the BART cop incident for example) are not automatically about race. That cop plain and simple fucked up and meant to taser the guy. The concept that he intended to MURDER a guy on a platform full of people is laughable.

Maybe. Not certain. How can you be certain?

As you go on to discuss later, misuse of tasers by LEO is systematic and the Oscar Grant shooting is why I oppose their issuing. They're not the "non lethal" devices they're promoted as, and they're used as retaliatory weapons without the bruising that sticks cause (unless the guy dies).

[crapflinger2000 1]

Occam's Razor... what is more likely... a BART cop decides to shoot a guy in the back who is surrounded and held down by other cops in full view of a gazillion BART riders...

or

He fucked up and pulled a pistol, worn on the same side of the body as his taser, and pulled the trigger. The same reason many departments mandate wearing them on different sides of the body before and after, but I guess not BART.

Judging by the concept that MOST COPS are NOT homicidal maniacs and his clearly stunned reaction to what he had just done, I go with the latter.

Nothing is certain. If you break the whole incident down, I can see how people can work themselves up into a lather when you start with the question of "should they have even been hassling the guy in the first place?" and so on and arrive at "MURDER!". But if you view it in the framework of each individual step in the chain, I just don't see him as deliberately shooting a guy. If he WAS the type to go on a kill crazy rampage, I am sure he woulda found an excuse to shoot someone prior to that incident.

I've certainly been in less stressful situations where the obvious course of action was "A" and for some dumb reason I did "B".

End of the day I seriously doubt the guy's thought process was, "Heh heh hehhhhh [evilly twiddling fingers]... just for funsies I am gonna pop a cap in this guy's back in front of everyone and then act surprised and then try to get out of it by pretending it was all a big mistake and I meant to use my taser... I am sure there will be NO repercussions and I am certain I wont at the very least be fired or possibly have to stand trial... I think I'll get an ice cream on the way home... heh heh hehhhhhh."

But anyway, yeah saw a show about Tasers and one department yanked them from the streets and relations with the public got a LOT better. Not sure i think they should be yanked across the board but the guidelines for using one should be a LOT fucking tighter in some departments (I am assuming that some departments probably DO already have stringent guidelines in place).

__________________________________________________
What would Vic Mackey do?

[kallend 1,619]

skycop

Quote

If it's predictable, explain carefully why cops in other first world nations are not killing people with such great regularity. Other countries have criminals too.

We've already had this conversation, many times.

No other free society on earth is as heavily armed as ours, like it or not. (With the possible exception of the Swiss).

I'll repeat this once again.
In my travels, all the cops I've met in other countries think American cops are nuts. Because our society is so heavily armed with weapons..................... and rights.

So basically you're saying that the Second Amendment is to blame for the absurdly high number of killings by cops in the USA.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wolfriverjoe 1,339]

kallend

***

Quote

If it's predictable, explain carefully why cops in other first world nations are not killing people with such great regularity. Other countries have criminals too.

We've already had this conversation, many times.

No other free society on earth is as heavily armed as ours, like it or not. (With the possible exception of the Swiss).

I'll repeat this once again.
In my travels, all the cops I've met in other countries think American cops are nuts. Because our society is so heavily armed with weapons..................... and rights.

So basically you're saying that the Second Amendment is to blame for the absurdly high number of killings by cops in the USA.

Well, we have a lot of other rights too. Free speech, assembly (protests), freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, so the cops can't just do what they want (although the "seizure" part has pretty much gone away). Fair trial so that the cops have to work to fabricate charges and evidence, and so on.

Yes, this is somewhat tongue in cheek, but not entirely.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[tikl68 6]

Ok, while the story you referenced does happen unfortunately, and should be dealt with, it has no similarities to the OP story of A police officer shooting a black teenager who ran from the police and pointed a firearm at them in a threatening manner.I fail to see the connection. Unless you are trying to say these cops fabricated the story about him running and then "planted" the BB gun on the scene. I will wait till the facts come out before I start beating the conspiracy drumb.

[SkyDekker 1,120]

Quote

Ok, while the story you referenced does happen unfortunately, and should be dealt with,

The problem is that it isn't dealt with. None of those officers will get more than a reprimand. Hardly ever is an officer charged and convicted after helping fabricate stories, corroborating stories they know to be false, helping "brothers" who they know have committed a crime etc etc etc.

[wolfriverjoe 1,339]

SkyDekker

Quote

Ok, while the story you referenced does happen unfortunately, and should be dealt with,

The problem is that it isn't dealt with. None of those officers will get more than a reprimand. Hardly ever is an officer charged and convicted after helping fabricate stories, corroborating stories they know to be false, helping "brothers" who they know have committed a crime etc etc etc.

Bingo - Look at Chicago. ONE cop is charged with murder.

How many others were involved in the coverup? How about the ones that erased the footage from the nearby surveillance cameras? (convenience store or fast food).

Considering that "clearing the browser history" has resulted in a conviction (plea deal, actually) for destruction of evidence, where are the charges in this?

How about malfeasance (failing to investigate a crime) for those at the scene, those who investigated it, those who declared it a "good shoot"?

Not going to happen.

And the cops wonder why the public doesn't trust them when they say "I had to shoot, I was in fear for my life."

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[tikl68 6]

Again not disagreeing that happens. but it does not appear that is the case in THIS STORY, but still waiting to hear the facts before raising the lynch mob. Saying that all cops are bad cause of the actions of some is no different than saying all African Americans are bad cause of a few, or that all white Harley Davidson riders are in biker gangs dealing meth, cause of the actions of a few.

I dont hear you or any one else saying what a tragedy it is when an officer is killed by some POS, and that happens fairly frequent and that POS should be held responsible and there is no out cry when he gets off. Yes they chose that job but should not diminish the tragedy, or make it open season.

[turtlespeed 212]

tikl68

Again not disagreeing that happens. but it does not appear that is the case in THIS STORY, but still waiting to hear the facts before raising the lynch mob. Saying that all cops are bad cause of the actions of some is no different than saying all African Americans are bad cause of a few, or that all white Harley Davidson riders are in biker gangs dealing meth, cause of the actions of a few.

I dont hear you or any one else saying what a tragedy it is when an officer is killed by some POS, and that happens fairly frequent and that POS should be held responsible and there is no out cry when he gets off. Yes they chose that job but should not diminish the tragedy, or make it open season.

You also won't see them try to deal with the real problem, either.

It's the narrative that feels most important to them, and that is what they will be outraged about.

Facts and reality be damned.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[wolfriverjoe 1,339]

tikl68

...I don't hear you or any one else saying what a tragedy it is when an officer is killed by some POS, and that happens fairly frequent and that POS should be held responsible and there is no out cry when he gets off. Yes they chose that job but should not diminish the tragedy, or make it open season.

Well, first off, the "POS" hasn't taken an oath to uphold the constitution and protect the public. Cops have.

And how often does the POS "get off"? Many times they don't survive to be arrested & tried.

A few people have pulled out the "open season on cops" line.
Is it really? There have been a few high profile incidents where an individual attacked the police. There was one in Philly last week. The attacker was killed (as usual). Same as in Dallas, Baton Rouge & NYC.

Not saying it doesn't happen, nor am I diminishing the deaths of the cops, but to compare the two is disingenuous.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[kelpdiver 2]

wolfriverjoe

Not saying it doesn't happen, nor am I diminishing the deaths of the cops, but to compare the two is disingenuous.

True, but in the opposite of what you believe.

Do you really believe the killings by LEOs are premeditated? The sniper attacks on the cops certainly were.

[wolfriverjoe 1,339]

kelpdiver

***

Not saying it doesn't happen, nor am I diminishing the deaths of the cops, but to compare the two is disingenuous.

True, but in the opposite of what you believe.

Do you really believe the killings by LEOs are premeditated? The sniper attacks on the cops certainly were.

Premeditated as in planned well ahead of time? No.

But definitely intentional.

Remember the pharmacist in Oklahoma City?
Convicted of 1st degree murder.

In a situation similar to McDonald in Chicago and Scott in South Charleston.

No argument that the attacks on the cops are premeditated.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[SkyDekker 1,120]

tikl68

Again not disagreeing that happens. but it does not appear that is the case in THIS STORY, but still waiting to hear the facts before raising the lynch mob. Saying that all cops are bad cause of the actions of some is no different than saying all African Americans are bad cause of a few, or that all white Harley Davidson riders are in biker gangs dealing meth, cause of the actions of a few.

I dont hear you or any one else saying what a tragedy it is when an officer is killed by some POS, and that happens fairly frequent and that POS should be held responsible and there is no out cry when he gets off. Yes they chose that job but should not diminish the tragedy, or make it open season.

Officers getting killed on the job is tragic and I certainly hope those who criminally cause it go to jail for it.

I also think a construction worker dying on the job is tragic.

One is called a hero, the other is never even reflected on.

Both died on the job, understanding what the risks of their profession are.

[kallend 1,619]

SkyDekker

***Again not disagreeing that happens. but it does not appear that is the case in THIS STORY, but still waiting to hear the facts before raising the lynch mob. Saying that all cops are bad cause of the actions of some is no different than saying all African Americans are bad cause of a few, or that all white Harley Davidson riders are in biker gangs dealing meth, cause of the actions of a few.

I dont hear you or any one else saying what a tragedy it is when an officer is killed by some POS, and that happens fairly frequent and that POS should be held responsible and there is no out cry when he gets off. Yes they chose that job but should not diminish the tragedy, or make it open season.

Officers getting killed on the job is tragic and I certainly hope those who do it go to jail for it.

I also think a construction worker dying on the job is tragic.

One is called a hero, the other is never even reflected on.

Both died on the job, understanding what the risks of their profession are.

LEOs come in at #15 on the list of most dangerous jobs.

time.com/4326676/dangerous-jobs-america/

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.