Terror Attack at Munich Mall

[kallend 1,623]

turtlespeed

******************

Quote

If weapons are made available just for "Well regulated" militias, it doesn't seem like their very well regulated with the number of non-militia related shootings.

Why would weapons just be made available to well regulated militias?

Isn't the original intent of the 2nd amendment was for the citizens to own arms so that they could be recruited into a "well regulated militia" if necessary?

Derek V

If that is the intent, then why have it at anymore? Between your armed forces, including the National guard, how many more well regulated militias do you need?

One that can stop a corrupt government from over reaching.

Exactly that many and no more.

The NG did a good job of that at Kent State.

You don't get it - NATIONAL guard.

Not independent militia against the government.

The Kent State shootings occurred at Kent State University in Kent, Ohio and involved the shooting of unarmed college students by the Ohio National Guard on Monday, May 4, 1970.

The second amendment is to protect us against the government not protect the government against the national guard.

Worked well at Kent State.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ryoder 1,381]

Hooknswoop

Why would weapons just be made available to well regulated militias?

Isn't the original intent of the 2nd amendment was for the citizens to own arms so that they could be recruited into a "well regulated militia" if necessary?

Derek V

To expand on this point, let's see what the word "militia" meant around the time the Constitution was created. Here is a clue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_Acts_of_1792

"The second Act, passed May 8, 1792, provided for the organization of the state militias. It conscripted every "free able-bodied white male citizen" between the ages of 18 and 45 into a local militia company. (This was later expanded to all males, regardless of race, between the ages 18-54 in 1862)..."


So the militia was all available male citizens who could be called up for military service if needed.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

Quote

One that can stop a corrupt government from over reaching.

Exactly that many and no more.

None of them can do that, nor can an armed populace. Well, other than the internet Rambos who will do it all by themselves.

[normiss 622]

So anyone over 28 is screwed!

[riggerrob 558]

Good logic Kallend!
Since muzzle-loading Kentucky squirrel rifles were fashionable when the second amendment was written, American citizens should be allowed to freely carry muzzle-loaders.
However, more modern rifles need more modern restrictions.
Sadly, Congress and Churches and the NRA are always decades behind new technology.

[kelpdiver 2]

kallend

Firearm homicides per 100,000 population:

Germany 0.07

USA 3.43

Maybe that place where "guns are banned" is on to something.

Germany certainly has a nicer murder rate, which is all the more impressive given how recently unification with the Soviet controlled East occurred, and continued pockets of neo nazis v immigration conflict.

But...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Germany - 0.9/100k
USA - 3.9/100k

4.3x is certainly better, but it's far less than the 49x ratio you trumpet. Ask the families of the victims in Nice if they feel any better that it was a truck that killed them. The people badly injured by the Syrian bomber can be grateful it was a poor execution, but that's more luck than the choice of weapon.

It should be troubling that a young man who didn't appear to have any ties to terrorist networks was able to obtain a gun at 18 and with a history that is clearly disqualifying. Certainly can't blame it on the NRA. With the S/N filed off, it will be difficult to determine how he obtained it, and if there is a failure in process that can be addressed. But in the face of a surge in attacks all over Europe that did have external support, it may be a tragic outlier and better effort is spent dealing with these others threats.

But how? you can't ban trucks and knives, and you don't want to close down the public. Trying to make peace with ISIS (often suggested here in SF) is cry out loud stupid.

It seems a bit disrespectful to pollute this thread with the usual babbling about the Constitution. Make your point once and then STFU, start another thread.

[kallend 1,623]

Just because criminals and/or loonies *can* obtain guns and ammo illegally doesn't mean we have to make it trivially easy for them.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

kallend

Just because criminals and/or loonies *can* obtain guns and ammo illegally doesn't mean we have to make it trivially easy for them.

This is besides the point. You continue to suggest that gun murders are more important than murders by any means. Germany doesn't have a lower murder rate because they make guns harder to get. They have a lower murder rate, period. But despite all these measures, this 18 year old still managed to obtain one.

Just breaking is that some disgruntled worker in Japan used a knife to kill 15 and wound many more. Your focus on the tooling only guarantees the problem continues.

If it were merely about gun availability, then the US should be seen surging numbers of deaths, not a 50% reduction. The AWB was demonstrably pointless. The Brady Bill has resulted in a pretty metric about sales stopped, but since the Feds (under multiple Adminstrations) don't bother to prosecute - no benefit. It's like they want to fail.

BTW, there's nothing trivial about the availability in California or Chicago. I know you like to blame Indiana for your city's troubles, but that line doesn't work so well here. It's a long drive to Nevada or Arizona from the urban cities of LA or the Bay Area.

[turtlespeed 212]

kallend

Just because criminals and/or loonies *can* obtain guns and ammo illegally doesn't mean we have to make it trivially easy for them.

Worked well in Germany - just this last time - eh?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[kallend 1,623]

turtlespeed

***
Just because criminals and/or loonies *can* obtain guns and ammo illegally doesn't mean we have to make it trivially easy for them.

Worked well in Germany - just this last time - eh?

In general, yes it does.

Firearm homicides per 100,000 population:

Germany 0.07

USA 3.43

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Hajo 0]

turtlespeed

Worked well in Germany - just this last time - eh?

As some of you might know, the Glock was an illegal one, purchased via darknet with roughly one year of search/attempt.
The handgun was a former decoration weapon with a proof stamp from Slovakia, which was modified (perhaps from the seller) back to a working 9mm.
The guy in munich purchased that with over 300 bullets and received it in a dropbox from a parcelservice, which is not uncommon for that kind of deal.
Dealers of that kind often hijack dropbox-accounts from private persons for their business. He payed via trust account.
The chathistory in the darknet shows somehow that he was willing to pay 2300.- /2600.- Euros for that package, but the seller should make a price of his own.
Usually a Glock17 is about 680.- euros, if purchased officially.

Sideinfo for germany:
95 % of the confiscated weapons on a crimescene are illegal ones.
Estimations are that 5,6 million legal weapons are on one side facing 15 - 20 millions of illegal weapons on the other side.
Some estimations go up to 60 million illegal weapons, but that seems really high.

So talking about the legal situation in Germany about using firearms in a crimescene is useless in that direction.
If we would manage to stop the import/distribution of illegal firearms in germany, that would effect the situation a lot more in a positive way.

My 50ct to the discussion about the constitution and the right to have firearms in the US:
you will never come to a consensus.
The part who hangs at the second amendment will defend it with all they have.
The part who sees that differently will not convince the other part.
So stop discuss that in the forums, it will not lead to an agreement.
(this applies also to the Trump/Hillary discussion ...)

--------------------------------------------------

With sufficient thrust,
pigs just fly well

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Perhaps your post can turn this thread back on track to discuss the four terror attacks in Germany last week conducted by three recent Syrian arrivals and the one German citizen with Iranian descent instead of talking about endless and very tiresome US Gun Control debate.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 2,396]

>So stop discuss that in the forums, it will not lead to an agreement.

If we only discussed things we agree with here, all threads would devolve to boobies and how much we dislike Skyride.

[jakee 1,254]

turtlespeed

******

Quote

If weapons are made available just for "Well regulated" militias, it doesn't seem like their very well regulated with the number of non-militia related shootings.

Why would weapons just be made available to well regulated militias?

Isn't the original intent of the 2nd amendment was for the citizens to own arms so that they could be recruited into a "well regulated militia" if necessary?

Derek V

If that is the intent, then why have it at anymore? Between your armed forces, including the National guard, how many more well regulated militias do you need?

One that can stop a corrupt government from over reaching.

Exactly that many and no more.

But when the militia stands up to the corrupt government and is slaughtered, you and your friends will say "Hey, the LEOs told them to drop their weapons and when they didn't immediately comply they deserved to be shot!"

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[christelsabine 1]

CanuckInUSA

Perhaps your post can turn this thread back on track to discuss the four terror attacks in Germany last week conducted by three recent Syrian arrivals and the one German citizen with Iranian descent instead of talking about endless and very tiresome US Gun Control debate.

Sadly enough, it were 3 attacks:

Würzburg: Knife attack, no dead, several injured. Islamic terror attack/background;

Munich: Shooting rampage, 10 dead (incl. attacker), many injured; no Islamic terror background;

Ansbach: Planned bomb attack, the idiot accidentially blew himself up; no further dead persons, several injured. Islamistic background ? Attacker had to be expelled, back to Bulgaria.

The 4th incident was a private tragedy, where culprit and victim were related. (Syrian refugee killed his pregnant girlfriend with a knife and injured several bystanders.)

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[nolhtairt 0]

christelsabine

***Perhaps your post can turn this thread back on track to discuss the four terror attacks in Germany last week conducted by three recent Syrian arrivals and the one German citizen with Iranian descent instead of talking about endless and very tiresome US Gun Control debate.

Sadly enough, it were 3 attacks:

Würzburg: Knife attack, no dead, several injured. Islamic terror attack/background;

Munich: Shooting rampage, 10 dead (incl. attacker), many injured; no Islamic terror background;

Ansbach: Planned bomb attack, the idiot accidentially blew himself up; no further dead persons, several injured. Islamistic background ? Attacker had to be expelled, back to Bulgaria.

The 4th incident was a private tragedy, where culprit and victim were related. (Syrian refugee killed his pregnant girlfriend with a knife and injured several bystanders.)

France got hit again...

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/priests-throat-slit-in-france-church-attack-what-we-know-so-far/ar-BBuTVGH

[rehmwa 2]

nolhtairt

******Perhaps your post can turn this thread back on track to discuss the four terror attacks in Germany last week conducted by three recent Syrian arrivals and the one German citizen with Iranian descent instead of talking about endless and very tiresome US Gun Control debate.

Sadly enough, it were 3 attacks:

Würzburg: Knife attack, no dead, several injured. Islamic terror attack/background;

Munich: Shooting rampage, 10 dead (incl. attacker), many injured; no Islamic terror background;

Ansbach: Planned bomb attack, the idiot accidentially blew himself up; no further dead persons, several injured. Islamistic background ? Attacker had to be expelled, back to Bulgaria.

The 4th incident was a private tragedy, where culprit and victim were related. (Syrian refugee killed his pregnant girlfriend with a knife and injured several bystanders.)

France got hit again...

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/priests-throat-slit-in-france-church-attack-what-we-know-so-far/ar-BBuTVGH

This really sucks. I'm wishing the best for our friends and families all over Europe.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kelpdiver 2]

Hajo

As some of you might know, the Glock was an illegal one, purchased via darknet with roughly one year of search/attempt.
The handgun was a former decoration weapon with a proof stamp from Slovakia, which was modified (perhaps from the seller) back to a working 9mm.
The guy in munich purchased that with over 300 bullets and received it in a dropbox from a parcelservice, which is not uncommon for that kind of deal.
Dealers of that kind often hijack dropbox-accounts from private persons for their business. He payed via trust account.
The chathistory in the darknet shows somehow that he was willing to pay 2300.- /2600.- Euros for that package, but the seller should make a price of his own.
Usually a Glock17 is about 680.- euros, if purchased officially.

That's much more information that published here, or seemed like to be obtained. But as you probably know, our news is easily distracted and not great about follow through.

But it, and your notes about the existing population of illegal weapons, doesn't lend itself to an obvious solution. Particularly with the open borders within the Eurozone, what can block a lone actor like this?

That said, with 5-50M weapons out there, why do you think shootings remain so rare within your country? That number doesn't seem that different from the illegal gun population of the US, and obviously with different results. (the bulk of the 300M+ are legally held) Is the drug trade more restrained? Is drug use much less prevalent?

[Hooknswoop 19]

You never did provide a link.......

I am not following. You said;

"Except they aren't very well regulated at this point.
Hence the problems we're seeing."

I asked you what problems militias are causing. You said;

"Unnecessary deaths and shootings, irresponsible ownership and storage resulting in shootings, lack of proper background checks, illegal transfer of weapons. "

I asked which militias are responsible for these problems. You said;

"Seems your Google is broken.
Have you not been paying attention? "

I am just asking you to back up your claim regarding poorly regulated militias causing these problems you describe. Can you provide a link?

Derek V

[Hooknswoop 19]

Care to explain the hypocrisy?

I get it, when you agree with the constitution and/or amendments, you quote it. When you disagree with it, you point out that quoting it is, "The classic fall-back position when logic doesn't work. Appeal to the authority of 250 year old dead white slave owners". Nice strategy, you can't lose!

Derek V

[kallend 1,623]

Hooknswoop

Care to explain the hypocrisy?

I get it, when you agree with the constitution and/or amendments, you quote it. When you disagree with it, you point out that quoting it is, "The classic fall-back position when logic doesn't work. Appeal to the authority of 250 year old dead white slave owners". Nice strategy, you can't lose!

Derek V

Why am I expected to explain the hypocrisy of a bunch of rich men who proclaimed that all men are equal, all the while keeping slaves (and raping at least one of them in the case of Jefferson)? I wasn't even there.

A bunch of their mistakes have been fixed already. I expect more will come.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[normiss 622]

Sure, keep ignoring what's actually happening.
Too many people who shouldn't have guns do, and then murder hundreds on a monthly basis.
You're good with that it seems.
I, and many many others, feel it's past time for more of the "well regulated" part of the second.
I've repeatedly stated some of the things I feel needs better regulation.
Feel free to use the search function in your insistence on ignoring what we say though.

[kallend 1,623]

Hooknswoop

Appeal to the authority of 250 year old dead white slave owners.
Derek V

According to O'Reilly, the slaves were well fed, so that's OK (by the standards of Fox news, anyway).

www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/07/27/bill-oreilly-michelle-obama-white-house-slaves-speech/87604632/

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

kallend

Why am I expected to explain the hypocrisy of a bunch of rich men who proclaimed that all men are equal, all the while keeping slaves (and raping at least one of them in the case of Jefferson)? I wasn't even there.

A bunch of their mistakes have been fixed already. I expect more will come.

There was no mistake in 'all men are created equal.' The fault laid in their interpretation of what 'all men' meant - now includes women and non whites. That's an execution failure, not a policy one.

Nothing has changed in 250 years to change the reasons around speech, religion and gun policy in the 1st and 2nd. The people remain the people.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Why am I expected to explain the hypocrisy of a bunch of rich men who proclaimed that all men are equal, all the while keeping slaves (and raping at least one of them in the case of Jefferson)? I wasn't even there.

A bunch of their mistakes have been fixed already. I expect more will come.

Nicely done. Purposely misunderstand the question. No, explain your hypocrisy. Someone else quotes the constitution and they are using "The classic fall-back position when logic doesn't work. Appeal to the authority of 250 year old dead white slave owners".

When you quote the constitution, it is OK. That makes you a hypocrit.

Derek V