rushmc 18 #51 June 15, 2016 kallend ******Because the cowards pick places where the law abiding, follow the law and do not bring guns. A muders paradise. And yet many wish the law abiding to have even more restrictionsGo figure... Yes the rest of the developed world is pretty much a gun free zone and we don't have anywhere the gun violence the US has. Maybe living in the US makes one predisposed to mental retardation, an inability to control one's anger and a tendency to go on murderous rampages. Or, maybe, just maybe, the easy availability of guns is a contributing factor to the number of mass shootings and the number of gun deaths in the US. The urge to own a gun styled like a military weapon is common among insecure males who wish to be thought of as "manly men". You'll probably find that many of them have "small hands". They are easy prey for NRA propaganda. I love your arrogance! Priceless"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMK 3 #52 June 15, 2016 rehmwa The point should simply be that individuals should have the option to choose to protect themselves. The point should be that that individuals shouldn't have being shot very high on their list of daily concerns. You don't need to reinvent the wheel on this one. Pick any of the other advanced nations and try copying them - seems there is a working solution everywhere but America."Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #53 June 15, 2016 rehmwa***Quotenot many people want to be some kind of hero - it's a crappy tactic to challenge "hey, why didn't the CCW holders save the day?" the answer might just be because the CCW is being responsible and not firing unnecessarily I agree, but it's a valid counter argument to the NRA position that having more CCW holders and no "gun free zones" would prevent mass shootings. You (general you, not you personally) can't have it both ways. I agree. The point shouldn't be the mass shootings would be prevented. The point should simply be that individuals should have the option to choose to protect themselves. If that stops some instances or mitigates the horrible damage,..... (Not even a 2nd amendment argument really, much more basic). So how are you protecting your family against asteroid strikes? Lightning strikes? The New Madrid fault? Drunk drivers? Medical errors? Drones? GMOs? ...... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #54 June 15, 2016 rushmc *********Because the cowards pick places where the law abiding, follow the law and do not bring guns. A muders paradise. And yet many wish the law abiding to have even more restrictionsGo figure... Yes the rest of the developed world is pretty much a gun free zone and we don't have anywhere the gun violence the US has. Maybe living in the US makes one predisposed to mental retardation, an inability to control one's anger and a tendency to go on murderous rampages. Or, maybe, just maybe, the easy availability of guns is a contributing factor to the number of mass shootings and the number of gun deaths in the US. The urge to own a gun styled like a military weapon is common among insecure males who wish to be thought of as "manly men". You'll probably find that many of them have "small hands". They are easy prey for NRA propaganda. I love your arrogance! PricelessIf the shoe fits...... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #55 June 15, 2016 kallend ************Because the cowards pick places where the law abiding, follow the law and do not bring guns. A muders paradise. And yet many wish the law abiding to have even more restrictionsGo figure... Yes the rest of the developed world is pretty much a gun free zone and we don't have anywhere the gun violence the US has. Maybe living in the US makes one predisposed to mental retardation, an inability to control one's anger and a tendency to go on murderous rampages. Or, maybe, just maybe, the easy availability of guns is a contributing factor to the number of mass shootings and the number of gun deaths in the US. The urge to own a gun styled like a military weapon is common among insecure males who wish to be thought of as "manly men". You'll probably find that many of them have "small hands". They are easy prey for NRA propaganda. I love your arrogance! PricelessIf the shoe fits... More akin to the glove in your case.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boomerdog 0 #56 June 15, 2016 I don't question the honesty and sincerity of your question. There are several answers, all of which may not be to your satisfaction but here goes anyway: 1. Preferences of the business. This nightclub had a "no gun rule" for the premises. Florida allows both open carry and concealed carry as well as having the "Castle Doctrine" or "Stand Your Ground" in law. Private property owners have the right to allow or not allow firearms on their property. 2. In this case, the nightclub allowed one off duty policeman having a second job as security to be armed and customers not to be armed. Again, the business is within their right to establish such a rule. 3. Now as much as many here think the NRA is the very spawn of Satan, the NRA does publish (in their monthly magazines) incidents where citizens did defend themselves (and in most cases prevailed) against an armed assailant. 4. The probability of finding one's self in a life threatening situation regardless of the number of possible victims is low. In the many situations I've carried a concealed fire arm, I'm fortunate to say that I've never been in a dangerous confrontation where I had to pull the weapon for possible use. Further, I hope that day never comes. But like skydiving where it's better to have two feet on the ground wishing to be in the air versus being in the air wishing to have two feet on the ground; I'd rather be armed and have the option than to be unarmed and at the "discretion and mercy" of a dirt bag. Finally, the answer is "NO!" I don't feel more powerful carrying a firearm. "Packing" means knowing the law and the legitimate rules of engagement. It's not something one wants to get wrong after the fact. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mirage62 0 #57 June 15, 2016 Hey John - and others who would like to see gun laws changed in America - EVEN the ones that don't live here. Please tell me the country that you believe we should model ourselves after. Be specific as to the rules in that county. Don't worry about the fact that it probably won't work here - just give me YOUR perfect country for gun laws.Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #58 June 15, 2016 mirage62Hey John - and others who would like to see gun laws changed in America - EVEN the ones that don't live here. Please tell me the country that you believe we should model ourselves after. Be specific as to the rules in that county. Don't worry about the fact that it probably won't work here - just give me YOUR perfect country for gun laws. I have not made an extensive study, but Canada seems to achieve a reasonable balance, and both its homicide and gun-suicide rates are far lower than the USA's. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Canada... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mirage62 0 #59 June 15, 2016 Interesting read JohnKevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aphid 0 #60 June 15, 2016 kallend I have not made an extensive study, but Canada seems to achieve a reasonable balance, and both its homicide and gun-suicide rates are far lower than the USA's. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Canada We might look like Americans, speak like Americans, subjected to overwhelming quantities of American television & news programming and Hollywood movies, but culturally we are very different from Americans. What currently works up here (and we do have citizens who really wish we had a version of your 2nd Amendment - some who post here, in fact), will never work in your country. In simplistic terms, we were fur-traders with long-guns. Not cowboys wearing six-shooters from dime-store novels. John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 910 #61 June 15, 2016 kallend***Hey John - and others who would like to see gun laws changed in America - EVEN the ones that don't live here. Please tell me the country that you believe we should model ourselves after. Be specific as to the rules in that county. Don't worry about the fact that it probably won't work here - just give me YOUR perfect country for gun laws. I have not made an extensive study, but Canada seems to achieve a reasonable balance, and both its homicide and gun-suicide rates are far lower than the USA's. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Canada Canada vr. USA Overall Crime: http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Canada/United-States/Crime Income inequality: http://www.conferenceboard.ca/hcp/details/society/income-inequality.aspx "The Swiss Difference: A Gun Culture That Works The country had one mass shooting in 2001, but a resulting anti-gun referendum failed to pass. The Swiss will not give up the gun. Can their system work in the U.S.?" http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-swiss-difference-a-gun-culture-that-works/ The homicide rate and numbers in Chicago are a good example of whats wrong with gun laws. It has the toughest anti-gun laws. But that can't overcome drugs, gangs and a violent subculture. "Forty-four people were shot in Chicago over the weekend, seven of them fatally, bringing the total number of gun violence victims in the city this year to more than 1,650. At least 282 of them died of their wounds, nearly 100 more than the year before, according to data kept by the Chicago Tribune. The deadliest stretch of the weekend was between 6 p.m. Saturday and 5:25 a.m. Sunday, when three people were killed and at least 17 others were wounded, according to police." http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-weekend-shootings-20160613-story.html Year to date would make 282 homicides 5.64 times as deadly as the Orlando shooting. Or in other terms a Orlando death toll every month. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,340 #62 June 16, 2016 DanG Okay, so you're going with the argument that one CCW wasn't enough, there needs to be multiple CCW carriers to stop an attacker. How hard does a target need to be before it stops being a soft target. Would two CCW have stopped the guy? Three? Did everyone need to be armed? Can you image the level of casualties if there were ten people in that bar shooting at each other? It would have been just as bad or worse. Arming everyone isn't a practical answer. I agree that people should be allowed to arm themselves, but I also agree that private venues should be allowed to bar people from being armed on their property. Finally, if an attacker is ready and willing to die for his cause, you simply can't stop him from taking other people with him. You can't. The best you can hope for is to stop the guy before he attacks. Barring that, the best you can hope for is minimizing the damage. Having a bunch of people all shooting at each other in a crowded bar isn't going to minimize any damage. The calls to increase background checks and stronger mental health services are aimed at stopping the guy before he attacks. You may think those efforts will be ineffective, but they'll be a lot more effective than putting more guns in the hands of drunk partiers at a nightclub. Well, first off, the security was apparently in full uniform. Not a CCW. And I don't disagree that an individual business owner should be able to decide whether or not to allow patrons to carry. Wisconsin has a pretty simple rule. Carry into bars is legal (unless the owner 'posts prohibited'). Consuming alcohol while carrying is illegal. There's also a ban on 'possession of a firearm while intoxicated' (not just for CCW but for anyone - is most often enforced on hunters). I know a married couple that the husband chooses to carry, so he's the designated driver when they go out. How many would be enough? I don't know. Maybe one? The idea of a shootout across the dance floor between multiple CCW holders and an active shooter is pretty "Hollywood", IMO. The mantra of "Run, hide, fight" applies pretty well, even when armed. There are reports that there were victims hiding in the bathrooms for a considerable time after the attack started. (based on texts sent by the victims). As I have suggested after some of the previous shootings, the best choice for an armed individual is to (if unable to escape entirely) take shelter in an available room, lock or bar the door if possible, get as many as possible of the others behind some sort of cover or concealment, and get into an off-axis position to shoot anyone entering the door. Ambush the attacker when he enters. It virtually eliminates the possibility of the armed citizen accidentally getting shot by another or the cops, and definitely increases the chances of everyone in the room surviving the incident. I don't disagree that better mental health services would be a strong plus. But I do want to know exactly what kind of "increased background checks" you think would help. Access to medical (mental health) records? HIPAA kind of gets in the way. Banning anyone on a "watch list"? Not a whole lot of 'due process' there. Requiring B/Cs for all transfers? Most of the recent shooters passed them to acquire the guns used. As I said in the other thread, I'm willing to listen to and possibly agree with implementing measures that will have an effect. But so many of the suggestions fall under the "do something, do anything" category."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #63 June 16, 2016 Phil1111******Hey John - and others who would like to see gun laws changed in America - EVEN the ones that don't live here. Please tell me the country that you believe we should model ourselves after. Be specific as to the rules in that county. Don't worry about the fact that it probably won't work here - just give me YOUR perfect country for gun laws. I have not made an extensive study, but Canada seems to achieve a reasonable balance, and both its homicide and gun-suicide rates are far lower than the USA's. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Canada Canada vr. USA Overall Crime: http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Canada/United-States/Crime Income inequality: http://www.conferenceboard.ca/hcp/details/society/income-inequality.aspx "The Swiss Difference: A Gun Culture That Works The country had one mass shooting in 2001, but a resulting anti-gun referendum failed to pass. The Swiss will not give up the gun. Can their system work in the U.S.?" http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-swiss-difference-a-gun-culture-that-works/ The homicide rate and numbers in Chicago are a good example of whats wrong with gun laws. It has the toughest anti-gun laws. But that can't overcome drugs, gangs and a violent subculture. "Forty-four people were shot in Chicago over the weekend, seven of them fatally, bringing the total number of gun violence victims in the city this year to more than 1,650. At least 282 of them died of their wounds, nearly 100 more than the year before, according to data kept by the Chicago Tribune. The deadliest stretch of the weekend was between 6 p.m. Saturday and 5:25 a.m. Sunday, when three people were killed and at least 17 others were wounded, according to police." http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-weekend-shootings-20160613-story.html Year to date would make 282 homicides 5.64 times as deadly as the Orlando shooting. Or in other terms a Orlando death toll every month. So?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tikl68 6 #64 June 16, 2016 While I was in Sweden for the summer of 2011 an idiot acquired a gun, a riffle not sure if it was auto or semi auto and went out onto an island in Norway and MURDERED a bunch of kids(40 if I member correct and a couple of adults) at camp. Norway is pretty strict with they fire arm policies. Thats just off the top of my head. Im sure there are more like this. There are other places with people who can not control their emotions,and firearms are not readily available, and they commit violence through other means,knives are popular in the UK, machetes, people have been hacked to death. Most of your posts are pretty scathing towards Americans, even going as far as to cal us mentally retarded this time. So stay in Canada eh where your safe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 910 #65 June 16, 2016 turtlespeed*********Hey John - and others who would like to see gun laws changed in America - EVEN the ones that don't live here. Please tell me the country that you believe we should model ourselves after. Be specific as to the rules in that county. Don't worry about the fact that it probably won't work here - just give me YOUR perfect country for gun laws. I have not made an extensive study, but Canada seems to achieve a reasonable balance, and both its homicide and gun-suicide rates are far lower than the USA's. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Canada Canada vr. USA Overall Crime: http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Canada/United-States/Crime Income inequality: http://www.conferenceboard.ca/hcp/details/society/income-inequality.aspx "The Swiss Difference: A Gun Culture That Works The country had one mass shooting in 2001, but a resulting anti-gun referendum failed to pass. The Swiss will not give up the gun. Can their system work in the U.S.?" http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-swiss-difference-a-gun-culture-that-works/ The homicide rate and numbers in Chicago are a good example of whats wrong with gun laws. It has the toughest anti-gun laws. But that can't overcome drugs, gangs and a violent subculture. "Forty-four people were shot in Chicago over the weekend, seven of them fatally, bringing the total number of gun violence victims in the city this year to more than 1,650. At least 282 of them died of their wounds, nearly 100 more than the year before, according to data kept by the Chicago Tribune. The deadliest stretch of the weekend was between 6 p.m. Saturday and 5:25 a.m. Sunday, when three people were killed and at least 17 others were wounded, according to police." http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-weekend-shootings-20160613-story.html Year to date would make 282 homicides 5.64 times as deadly as the Orlando shooting. Or in other terms a Orlando death toll every month. So? Its the values of the society not the gun, number of guns, or laws allowing or restricting their use. That leads to gun violence. Spanish youth as an example have twice the unemployment rate as US black youths. Yet the culture of violence are polar opposites. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #66 June 16, 2016 They aren't taught that violence is the answer.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 143 #67 June 16, 2016 mirage62 Hey John - and others who would like to see gun laws changed in America - EVEN the ones that don't live here. Please tell me the country that you believe we should model ourselves after. Be specific as to the rules in that county. Don't worry about the fact that it probably won't work here - just give me YOUR perfect country for gun laws. Iran Similar religious values, has WMD and set the example of electing an insane leader.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 125 #68 June 16, 2016 and that is an anecdotal story on one occurrence and doesn't make the case for statistical analysis In fact it supports gun control when compared to the USA, but sure, go ahead and make our case for us. thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #69 June 16, 2016 Phil1111 The homicide rate and numbers in Chicago are a good example of whats wrong with gun laws. It has the toughest anti-gun laws. FALSE. That hasn't been true since 2014. And since 2014 the homicide rate in Chicago has gone UP.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hajo 0 #70 June 16, 2016 tikl68While I was in Sweden for the summer of 2011 an idiot acquired a gun, a riffle not sure if it was auto or semi auto and went out onto an island in Norway and MURDERED a bunch of kids(40 if I member correct and a couple of adults) at camp. ... You are talking about Anders Breivik http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/anders-breivik-a-mass-murderer-who-did-a-nazi-salute-in-court-isnt-being-called-a-terrorist-why-hes-a6932896.html He bombed 8 persons dead in Oslo and shot 69, mostly kids, later on on an island called Utoya. He was wearing a police uniform ... The pic shows him at the police station, shortly after he was taken into custody. He did not just buy a rifle and went out, he was in a gun club and had a very violent history... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik-------------------------------------------------- With sufficient thrust, pigs just fly well Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 910 #71 June 16, 2016 kallend*** The homicide rate and numbers in Chicago are a good example of whats wrong with gun laws. It has the toughest anti-gun laws. FALSE. That hasn't been true since 2014. And since 2014 the homicide rate in Chicago has gone UP. Please explain. As an aside: "Labour MP Jo Cox in critical condition after being shot and stabbed " https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/16/labour-mp-jo-cox-shot-in-west-yorkshire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #72 June 16, 2016 aphidsubjected to overwhelming quantities of American television & news programming and Hollywood movies . . . . In simplistic terms, we were fur-traders with long-guns. Not cowboys wearing six-shooters from dime-store novels. clearly the first is true if you think that last part - ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #73 June 16, 2016 Phil1111****** The homicide rate and numbers in Chicago are a good example of whats wrong with gun laws. It has the toughest anti-gun laws. FALSE. That hasn't been true since 2014. And since 2014 the homicide rate in Chicago has gone UP. Please explain. Chicago no longer has gun laws out of line with the rest of the USA. CCW is legal, gun ownership is legal. These changes came about in the time frame 2011-2013. And as you point out, homicides have jumped since then. Maybe you should do some fact-checking before posting falsehoods.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mirage62 0 #74 June 16, 2016 So John, you have point this out about a million times - are you saying that the reason deaths are up in Chicago is because the gun laws were relaxed? YES or NOKevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 256 #75 June 16, 2016 Phil1111****** The homicide rate and numbers in Chicago are a good example of whats wrong with gun laws. It has the toughest anti-gun laws. FALSE. That hasn't been true since 2014. And since 2014 the homicide rate in Chicago has gone UP. Please explain. As an aside: "Labour MP Jo Cox in critical condition after being shot and stabbed " https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/16/labour-mp-jo-cox-shot-in-west-yorkshire One person getting shot in the UK is still news.Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
