Holy Crap - The Irony.. .

[Coreeece 2]

billvon

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A more accurate statement would've been:
"Leviticus 20:10 says that Jews should stone to death adulterers. If one guy went and did that?
FUCK THE JEWS!"

I didn't know you had renounced the Bible.

Yoink stated that Leviticus says Christians should stone adulterers. Levites are Jews - there where no Christians around at that time and therefore replacing "Christians" with "Jews" makes it a more accurate statement - it speaks nothing of my commitment to Scripture.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[DJL 232]

Coreeece

***

Quote

A more accurate statement would've been:
"Leviticus 20:10 says that Jews should stone to death adulterers. If one guy went and did that?
FUCK THE JEWS!"

I didn't know you had renounced the Bible.

Yoink stated that Leviticus says Christians should stone adulterers. Levites are Jews - there where no Christians around at that time and therefore replacing "Christians" with "Jews" makes it a more accurate statement - it speaks nothing of my commitment to Scripture.

The split of Christianity from Judaism is something we invented, not Christ. Do you really think that God put his son on Earth to dis-include Jews from his overall plan or to relinquish responsibility to the Old Testament by those who came after? It seems that what you're trying to do is create a method by which you don't have to listen to the Old Testament, or at least cherry pick from it.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[gowlerk 1,903]

Yes, the way I read Matthew 5:17-19 is Jesus is instructing that the laws of the bible must be obeyed, literally, and for all time. On pain of punishment in hell. Something most Christians, Coreeece included seem to be glossing over and looking for ways to prevaricate. And for good reason. If they did not they would look a lot like Muslim fundamentalists. Or Jewish fundamentalists, who are every bit as radical, but better controlled.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Coreeece 2]

gowlerk

Yes, the way I read Matthew 5:17-19 is Jesus is instructing that the laws of the bible must be obeyed, literally, and for all time. On pain of punishment in hell. Something most Christians, Coreeece included seem to be glossing over and looking for ways to prevaricate.

This has been a topic of much discussion over the years - none of it's really new. Even Paul was dealing with Judaizers that were saying the same thing - they wanted to mix grace with the Law, but Paul explained that the two ideas are mutually exclusive. If you believe you're justified through the Law, then there is no reason for Christ, right? What's the point?

The religious leaders of the time viewed Christ's actions as a violation of their law and accused him of wanting to destroy it, so he clarified that he was in fact not here to destroy the Law, but to fulfill the Law - that nothing will pass from it UNTIL all was accomplished - and fulfill it is what he did, and accomplished it through his death.

Now if you don't understand that, then perhaps you're the one who's glossing over the text and ignoring the entire basis for Christianity. I'd question if you even finished the story. . .

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Coreeece 2]

DJL

The split of Christianity from Judaism is something we invented, not Christ. Do you really think that God put his son on Earth to dis-include Jews from his overall plan

No, the "Old Testament" speaks of the idea of a Messiah - some Jews believe Christ is that Messiah and they refer to themselves as Christians, while others prefer to be distinguished as Messianic Jews.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[gowlerk 1,903]

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and fulfill it is what he did, and accomplished it through his death.

I understand why you and others want to believe that. But where is it written that is so? Are you saying that Christ dying for our sins removes the law of God? No bloody wonder his cult became so popular and left the Jews behind!

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[normiss 620]

While also being the martyr for the followers of christianity.
I'm never going to understand celebration of death as the ultimate reward.

[gowlerk 1,903]

normiss

While also being the martyr for the followers of christianity.
I'm never going to understand celebration of death as the ultimate reward.

That's not hard. Life is temporary, death is forever. Redemption is seen as a way of turning those facts around. Disney on steroids. Better than magic fairy dust. All you have to do is ignore the facts and believe your little heart out.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[DJL 232]

What kind of church do you go to? I grew up as a Christian, going to mostly non-denominational churches, studied the bible thoroughly. I have not heard many of the things you talk about in this thread and in others.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[billvon 2,384]

>Yoink stated that Leviticus says Christians should stone adulterers.

The BIBLE directs you to stone adulterers. If you have renounced it, of course, you don't have to follow it. (Or do what most Christians do, and just renounce the parts of it you don't like.)

[Coreeece 2]

gowlerk

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and fulfill it is what he did, and accomplished it through his death.

I understand why you and others want to believe that. But where is it written that is so?

Well I already gave you John 19:30, but perhaps Luke 24:44-47 might help make the point:

"He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

Now if you're out preaching repentance, you're not out stoning people to death are you?

Here are some other relevant verses, but there are much more pertaining to Grace and the abolition of the Law:
Romans 4:14, 7:2-6, 10:4 - Galatians 3:24-25 - Colossians 2:14

gowlerk

Are you saying that Christ dying for our sins removes the law of God? No bloody wonder his cult became so popular and left the Jews behind!

Ephesians 2:14-15

"For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us. He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups."

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Coreeece 2]

billvon

>Yoink stated that Leviticus says Christians should stone adulterers.

The BIBLE directs you to stone adulterers. If you have renounced it, of course, you don't have to follow it.

I don't have to follow it because Scripture itself explains in great detail how the Law has been fulfilled and why it's no longer applicable to stone people - no renouncement needed.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[gowlerk 1,903]

That ties things up nicely. No wonder Constantine became so enamored. That's a big upgrade from the old system of Gods.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[billvon 2,384]

>I don't have to follow it because Scripture itself explains in great detail how the Law
>has been fulfilled and why it's no longer applicable to stone people - no renouncement
>needed.

It actually explicitly states that Jesus did NOT come to end the law, and every bit of it still has to be obeyed. "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." And if that wasn't enough emphasis - "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Not much wiggle room there - unless you claim that heaven and earth have passed away. (Or unless you want to be called "least in the kingdom of heaven.")

But feel free to ignore that as well; most people do.

[gowlerk 1,903]

Bill, you missed the part about Jesus's life and death "fulfilling all". The biblical legal scholars insist that God's law is ended by this clause. No wonder the Jews didn't convert. They know a scam when they see one.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Coreeece 2]

billvon

Not much wiggle room there - unless you claim that heaven and earth have passed away. (Or unless you want to be called "least in the kingdom of heaven.")

...or unless the law has been fulfilled and everything had been accomplished - which Christ Did. All that's left then is to place your faith in Him - no renouncement needed.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Coreeece 2]

gowlerk

Bill, you missed the part about Jesus's life and death "fulfilling all". The biblical legal scholars insist that God's law is ended by this clause. No wonder the Jews didn't convert. They know a scam when they see one.

What's the point in seeking justification through a Law that has already condemned one to death?

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[gowlerk 1,903]

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What's the point in seeking justification through a Law that has already condemned one to death?

So the unconverted Jews, God's chosen people, are now condemned unless they convert. Correct?

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Coreeece 2]

gowlerk

Quote

What's the point in seeking justification through a Law that has already condemned one to death?

So the unconverted Jews, God's chosen people, are now condemned unless they convert. Correct?

Convert? All they have to do is believe on the Messiah that they've been waiting for - and many already have.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[gowlerk 1,903]

Coreeece

***

Quote

What's the point in seeking justification through a Law that has already condemned one to death?

So the unconverted Jews, God's chosen people, are now condemned unless they convert. Correct?

Convert? All they have to do is believe on the Messiah that they've been waiting for - and many already have.


So, the answer to my question, that you are evading, is yes then? God's chosen people are condemned to hell unless they convert?

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[gowlerk 1,903]

Quote

and many already have.

Yes, a good number of them by force. Sort of like Islamist sometimes do.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[billvon 2,384]

>.or unless the law has been fulfilled and everything had been accomplished - which Christ Did.

?? Leviticus lists laws that have to be obeyed, and penalties if they are not obeyed. If you drive home sober one night, does that mean you have "fulfilled the law" against drunk driving and no longer have to obey that law?

[jakee 1,254]

Coreeece

***Not much wiggle room there - unless you claim that heaven and earth have passed away. (Or unless you want to be called "least in the kingdom of heaven.")

...or unless the law has been fulfilled and everything had been accomplished - which Christ Did. All that's left then is to place your faith in Him - no renouncement needed.

That doesn't jive with any of the other translations provided on the last page. There is quite clearly no 'or' provision in any of them. As written in english the meaning is definitely that the 'all being finished / fulfilled / accomplished' is everything that will happen until the end of time.

I guess they must all be bad translations and you got the good one.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[normiss 620]

Life itself condemns all living beings to death.

[turtlespeed 212]

normiss

Life itself condemns all living beings to death.

Not .. .ALL. . .

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun