Possible terrorist attack - Orlando, FL 6-12-16

[mistercwood 287]

JohnnyMarko

I know I don't post here much anymore, but sucks to report I lost a good friend in this senseless attack. Fuck this. Total bullshit. I'm sick to my stomach.

That's fucked dude. Sorry for your loss...

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[Coreeece 2]

normiss

Based on the shooter's father's comments, the mass murderer simply hated gay people. Blame islam for that if you want, but hatred for gays is as equally christian as it is in islam. To me, it's just simple religious hatred for fellow humans.

Oh ok, so in other words:

Islamic Terrorist Kills - Fuck Christianity!

Bear shits in the woods - Fuck Christianity!

As I said in the other thread, Christianity seeks to call sinners to repentance, not to kill them. . .

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[gowlerk 1,911]

SivaGanesha

What positive options is Justin Trudeau offering for Canada's angry young men? I respect his feminist viewpoint. But what does he offer for Canada's angry young MEN? The only positive suggestion you mentioned is to compete in sports. That has some value but only a small, small number will ever become professional athletes. What other options are available?

I'm not sure why you would bring Trudeau into this. He has been PM for a few months. Rob's point seemed to be about the choices and opportunities Canadian society affords to young men that give them better options. A few will and have chosen bad options anyway. Options in Canada are largely limited only by men's willingness to work to their goals.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

I am very sorry for your loss Johnny. [hug]

[Phil1111 910]

gowlerk

***What positive options is Justin Trudeau offering for Canada's angry young men? I respect his feminist viewpoint. But what does he offer for Canada's angry young MEN? The only positive suggestion you mentioned is to compete in sports. That has some value but only a small, small number will ever become professional athletes. What other options are available?

I'm not sure why you would bring Trudeau into this. He has been PM for a few months. Rob's point seemed to be about the choices and opportunities Canadian society affords to young men that give them better options. A few will and have chosen bad options anyway. Options in Canada are largely limited only by men's willingness to work to their goals.

Agree. Federal and local governments can only do so much in leading social thinking and actions. I have seen some news editorials comparing France's poor opportunities for Muslim immigrants. IMO the IS in Iraq has maybe two more years. Perhaps three in Syria.

That will not be the end of IS thinking and actions. The hate of Sunni vr. Shia and the ideas taught in Saudi schools and Pakistani madrasas. Where non-believers are "filth" and should be killed.

"What you're saying is that, if we wanted to look for the causes of what's happened -- Al Qaeda and the movement worldwide -- we would have to look to the schools, to the educational system which Saudi Arabia has fostered in the Islamic world?

... In order to have terrorists, in order to have supporters for terrorists, in order to have people who are willing to interpret religion in violent ways, in order to have people who are willing to legitimate crashing yourself into a building and killing 5,000 innocent people, you need particular interpretations of Islam.

Those interpretations of Islam are being propagated out of schools that receive organizational and financial funding from Saudi Arabia. In fact, I would push it further: that these schools would not have existed without Saudi funding. They would not have proliferated across Pakistan and India and Afghanistan without Saudi funding. They would not have had the kind of prowess that they have without Saudi funding, and they would not have trained as many people without Saudi funding."
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saudi/analyses/madrassas.html

"A disarming approach
Can the beliefs that feed terrorism be changed?
Apr 2nd 2016

ACCORDING to Peter Neumann, a terrorism-watcher at King’s College London, experience points to three common features in successful efforts to wean someone off extremism. He must already have inner doubts; trusted people, whether imams, friends or relatives, must be involved; and he must be offered an alternative peer group. He may also be more concerned with personal problems or geopolitical grievances than matters of theology.

Still, given that IS’s appeal lies in a perverse but seductive form of religion, some of the counter-argument has to be religious. How to persuade a jihadist, or somebody tempted by jihadism, that there might be better, and truer, ways to understand Islam than the murderous fanaticism of IS and similar groups?

One approach is to challenge their vision of the world, according to which a place belongs either to Dar al-Islam, the realm where Islam prevails, or to Dar al-Harb, where the faith’s enemies are to be found. In the land it controls, IS claims to have re-established Dar al-Islam with a purity comparable to the first Muslim community. The more idealised his vision of Dar al-Islam, the easier it is for an impressionable young Muslim to convince himself that everywhere else is Dar al-Harb, a zone of adversaries deserving no mercy.

But a mentor can show that this division has never been binary. There are intermediate situations such as Dar al-Dawa, the abode of invitation, where Islam does not predominate but can be practised and preached freely. Another important term is Dar al-Ahd, abode of the contract: places which live in established peace with Muslims. Some Muslim scholars say the West is a more comfortable place to practise the faith than many Muslim-majority countries. And Islam has a lot to say about loyalty and obedience to states that allow Muslims to live safely and devoutly.

To the jihadist and the Islamo-sceptical Westerner alike, sharia law may conjure up images of cruel religious punishment. To a young Muslim frustrated by the ambivalence of life in the West, there may be something seductive about the idea of swift, ruthless justice, ordained by God and therefore not open to question. But a mentor can suggest returning to the original meaning of sharia: a way of promoting the well-being of the individual and the community. The term refers not only to retribution but to Islam’s positive guidance for living generously and humbly.

A hardened jihadist may have been swayed by “The Management of Savagery”, a kind of manifesto for al-Qaeda and its imitators that was published online in 2004. It calls for merciless violence, especially in Muslim countries where Western countries have some influence. The intention is to foment grievance, force the West to over-react and bring about chaos and collapse from which a true caliphate can emerge. It may be possible to convince the subject that all this is alien to the philosophy of war set out in the Koran and by its interpreters. These emphasise that war should only be waged in response to aggression, treachery or a broken treaty, and that civilians should be spared.

Today’s jihadists can also be cast in an unflattering light by drawing parallels with an extremist sect from Islam’s earliest days. Known as the Khawarij, they turned against the caliph of the day and assassinated him, because he was emollient enough to submit to arbitration in a conflict with a rival. The Sunni preachers of IS strongly reject the comparison between themselves and the Khawarij. But the defining feature of the Khawarij, shared with today’s terrorists, was a fondness for denouncing as infidel any Muslim less fanatical than themselves.

Among Muslims who set out to woo people away from terrorism, none of these points is much disputed. Each is intended to challenge the jihadists’ claim to be returning to Islam’s purest sources. But that does not mean that the work is free of controversy.

In Britain, especially, there has been bitter argument, not over how to go about mentoring, but over who should do it. Is the job best given to religious teachers who themselves hold quite hard-line theological and political views and can therefore partly empathise with their subjects, or should it be restricted to those who espouse secular notions of liberty and equality, including, for example, gay rights?

Words and wounds

In recent years, the more restrictive view has prevailed. In comparison with interventions focused on social work elsewhere, Britain’s deradicalisation programme, known as Channel, is perceived to be police-led. It is part of an anti-terror strategy known as Prevent, which was denounced this week by a teachers’ union for requiring teachers to report on their pupils.

Channel is also theology-heavy—but it only uses mentors who espouse liberal democracy, secular law and Western notions of freedom, tolerance and equality. They must unconditionally oppose attacks on British forces. Rashad Ali, one of those mentors and a fellow of the Institute for Strategic Dialogue, a think-tank in London, argues that deradicalisation can be worse than useless if practitioners, while condemning IS, condone other violence.

The difficulty, insists Alyas Karmani, a British imam who has mentored jailed extremists but has now fallen out of official favour, is that restricting the pool to such impeccably liberal-minded folk disqualifies the great majority of those well-placed to communicate and empathise with their subjects. In particular, imams who share their subjects’ anger at Western foreign policy, for example the use of drones over Pakistan and Afghanistan, are excluded.

In Islamic terminology, there is a degree of ijma, or consensus, on what to say to a would-be jihadist. But on who should say it there is fitna, a state of dangerous strife."

http://www.economist.com/news/international/21695876-can-beliefs-feed-terrorism-be-changed-disarming-approach

[nolhtairt 0]

normiss

Based on the shooter's father's comments, the mass murderer simply hated gay people. Blame islam for that if you want, but hatred for gays is as equally christian as it is in islam. To me, it's just simple religious hatred for fellow humans.

Uh, did you miss the part where Mateen called 911 during the shooting from the bathroom, and pledged allegiance to ISIS?

It wasn't just a hate crime. It was Jihad by a home-grown shit-turd little fucking bitch terrorist.

There will be more of these attacks. Its up to us to try and stop these motherfuckers before they carry them out. Got one stopped in L.A. though.

Open your fucking eyes.

[normiss 622]

Like I've said before, no difference in ANY of the religions that celebrate death as the reward for believing.
That is fucking insane.
So yeah, fuck religion.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

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Uh, did you miss the part where Mateen called 911 during the shooting from the bathroom, and pledged allegiance to ISIS?

That simply doesn't mean that ISIS ever communicated with this idiot though. Until we find evidence of that, this really means nothing.

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stop these motherfuckers

The problem is identifying the motherfuckers.

[DanG 1]

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There will be more of these attacks. Its up to us to try and stop these motherfuckers before they carry them out. Got one stopped in L.A. though.

Was the (potential) one in LA fueled by Islam?

- Dan G

[winsor 186]

normiss

Like I've said before, no difference in ANY of the religions that celebrate death as the reward for believing.
That is fucking insane.
So yeah, fuck religion.

Given that religion is a communicable form of mental illness, I agree that there is little to recommend any of them.

Having said that, there is a significant difference in how virulent one strain is compared to another.

There are those who host Islam without apparent detrimental effect, along the lines of Typhoid Mary.

When you have a flare-up of Islam, however, the outpouring of psychotic violence outstrips the competition. When it comes to pathology, Muslims make Catholics look like rank amateurs.

[gowlerk 1,911]

Yes, there are aspects of Islam that make it worse than other religions. It has built into it a belief in a goal of taking over the world. By force if necessary. And it teaches that killing is justified for apostasy. It's like a criminal gang in that aspect. You can't leave or we'll have to kill you.

Most Muslims just ignore these aspects of the teachings. Like most Catholics ignore much of the doctrine preached by the Vatican. But it's always there. Waiting to be used and misused by those with evil on their minds.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[normiss 622]

Maybe try opening yours.
Did you happen to watch the FBI update today?

[nolhtairt 0]

Intelligence and Law Enforcement apparently didn't keep a close enough eye on Mateen...

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/on-9-11-omar-mateen%E2%80%99s-classmates-mourned-some-say-he-celebrated/ar-AAgZl12?li=BBnbcA1

This goes all the way back to 9/11.

ETA: apparently he scoped out other targets, like Disney World... http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/orlando-nightclub-gunman-scouted-walt-disney-world-as-potential-target-source/ar-AAgZ999?li=BBnbcA1

[TriGirl 268]

nolhtairt

***Based on the shooter's father's comments, the mass murderer simply hated gay people. Blame islam for that if you want, but hatred for gays is as equally christian as it is in islam. To me, it's just simple religious hatred for fellow humans.

Uh, did you miss the part where Mateen called 911 during the shooting from the bathroom, and pledged allegiance to ISIS?

It wasn't just a hate crime. It was Jihad by a home-grown shit-turd little fucking bitch terrorist.

There will be more of these attacks. Its up to us to try and stop these motherfuckers before they carry them out. Got one stopped in L.A. though.

Open your fucking eyes.
I'm going to agree just a bit with Normiss here (and no, I have not yet seen today's FBI report, Normiss). Just like the drunk loser in Chattanooga, who couldn't hold a job because he couldn't quit using drugs and drinking all day. This guy was a raging homophobe who couldn't just let other people live their lives (I'm interested in earlier speculation here about why he drove such a distance to this particular club).

It's really easy for both of these jackasses to leech onto the hate-spewing group of like-minded sociopaths to provide "justification" for their evil murders. They were both losers who couldn't deal with their own issues, so they found a group to which to claim allegiance in order to justify their hateful (self-loathing?) thoughts.

I could be wrong, and will look for the results of the investigation to fill in the information I don't know that I don't know. But that's how it looks from my perspective at this point.

Daesh is using cherry-picked passages from the Quran to "justify" their sociopathic power-hungry, blood-thirsty behavior. They could have found this anywhere, but religion is the easiest path to "legitimacy." And they're finding plenty of like-minded dickwads to jump on their bandwagon.

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[turtlespeed 212]

Iago

***Based on the shooter's father's comments, the mass murderer simply hated gay people. Blame islam for that if you want, but hatred for gays is as equally christian as it is in islam. To me, it's just simple religious hatred for fellow humans.

I have empathy for this guy's parents. They will always be known as the parents of 'that psyco that shot up a group of people.'

This was sick. These incidents will continue to happen until mental health problems in the US are pushing out of the dark and treated properly.

Recognition that Islam is a form of mental illness would be a start.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[SkyDekker 1,122]

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Recognition that Islam is a form of mental illness would be a start.

Why only Islam?

[billvon 2,396]

>Why only Islam?

Because he's not Muslim.

[winsor 186]

SkyDekker

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Recognition that Islam is a form of mental illness would be a start.

Why only Islam?

Start with the most virulent strains.

Think AIDS vs. genital warts.

[riggerrob 558]

........ I have not yet seen today's FBI report, Normiss). Just like the drunk loser in Chattanooga, who couldn't hold a job because he couldn't quit using drugs and drinking all day. This guy was a raging homophobe who couldn't just let other people live their lives (I'm interested in earlier speculation here about why he drove such a distance to this particular club).

It's really easy for both of these jackasses to leech onto the hate-spewing group of like-minded sociopaths to provide "justification" for their evil murders. They were both losers who couldn't deal with their own issues, so they found a group to which to claim allegiance to justify their hateful (self-loathing?) thoughts.

I could be wrong, and will look for the results of the investigation to fill in the information I don't know that I don't know. But that's how it looks from my perspective at this point.

Daesh is using cherry-picked passages from the Quran to "justify" their sociopathic power-hungry, blood-thirsty behavior. They could have found this anywhere, but religion is the easiest path to "legitimacy." And they're finding plenty of like-minded dickwads to jump on their bandwagon.

..................................:...........................


Good points.

Usually, "fag bashing" is just another form of cowardess or bullying.
IOW venting one's frustrations on a defenseless minority .... like those Wyoming rednecks who beat a gay high school student to death.

When the ex-wife - of the Florida shooter -complained that he was manic-depressive and used to beat her, that confirms suspicions that his mental problems predate his conversion to ISIL's version of Islam.
Her accusations also prove that he was the sort of coward who beats on women ..... a long way from a righteous jihadi.

Sounds like he was a long way from completing his inner jihad??????

However; there is a second possible explanation in the Florida case. It has very little to do with Islam .... rather it relates to tribal traditions that pre-date the arrival of Islam in Afghanistan.
The next question is: "Which Afghan tribe was the shooter born into?"
"Was he born into a tribe that practice man-love Thursdays?"
"Was he more of a pitcher or a catcher?"
"Was he a reluctant catcher?"

Which tribe was the Florida shooter born into?

[gowlerk 1,911]

winsor

***

Quote

Recognition that Islam is a form of mental illness would be a start.

Why only Islam?

Start with the most virulent strains.

Think AIDS vs. genital warts.

The same virus that causes genital warts causes cervical cancer. Religions all tend to do evil to those outside or non compliant. Islam is running amok for more reasons than it's core beliefs. It currently is thriving in a lawless corrupt environment.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[TriGirl 268]

riggerrob

Sounds like he was a long way from completing his inner jihad??????

As, unfortunately, too many are. It is, after all, the greater jihad. You'd think it would draw more attention.

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[ryoder 1,384]

"Orlando Shooter Was Reportedly a Regular at Pulse and Had a Profile on Gay Dating App": http://gawker.com/orlando-shooter-was-reportedly-a-regular-at-pulse-and-h-1781920316

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[muff528 3]

ryoder

"Orlando Shooter Was Reportedly a Regular at Pulse and Had a Profile on Gay Dating App": http://gawker.com/orlando-shooter-was-reportedly-a-regular-at-pulse-and-h-1781920316

Wonder if this is true. It all seemed to click. The hundred-mile trip, the interviews with his wife, his father and then the neighbor. I had a feeling that maybe his father knew, or recently found out about his orientation. Dad didn't seem to be very distraught over the death of his son. Very conflicted, he sought absolution through the killings ....a personal Jihad. Maybe not.

[ryoder 1,384]

Chris Hayes interview.
Choose the video "Orlando man recognized gunman from gay dating apps": http://www.msnbc.com/all

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[RonD1120 58]

Two radicalized Islamic terrorists from the same FL mosque. Here is an explanation as to why the FBI investigations failed.

http://floridafamily.org/full_article.php?article_no=564

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.