where is the "rape culture" in the Stanford rape case

[SivaGanesha 2]

A highly publicized sexual assault on the Stanford campus has been in the news recently. A student, Brock Turner, assaulted a woman who was not a student but was a guest at a frat party and there has been outrage that he got just six months in jail:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/brock-turner-judge-aaron-persky_us_57567e21e4b0ca5c7b4fee75

Many commentators are referring to this as an example of "rape culture":

http://www.pri.org/stories/2016-06-08/disappointed-not-surprised-stanford-and-american-rape-culture

I'm struggling to see where the "rape culture" is in this case. Yes, the judge might have handed down a harsher punishment in the jail/prison component of the sentence and reasonable people can certainly criticize the judge for that. But absolutely nothing about the cultural response to this case suggests that there is anything remotely acceptable about rape. Quite the contrary the cultural response has been unanimously to condemn Turner's act as the vile act that it was:

Two fellow students passing by immediately intervened physically to stop the act. Authorities were called and Turner was physically restrained until he could be arrested.

Stanford within a few days permanently barred Turner from campus and would have formally expelled him had he not first withdrew--and he deserved to be kicked out of Stanford.

Turner is permanently barred from swimming competitively ever again--nor does he deserve to ever swim competitively again.

Charges were pressed and a jury convicted Turner--as he deserved.

Turner faces a lifetime of registration as a sex offender and many career options will be permanently closed to him as a result--and he deserves such a punishment.

And--yes--the judge may have been a bit too lenient when it came to the jail part of the punishment and people may be right in criticizing the judge for not imposing a multi-year term of imprisonment. But even a six month sentence is a cultural rebuke. We don't send people to jail even for six months unless we want to send the message that their behavior is culturally unacceptable. And the general cultural response has been that the judge's sentence was too lenient.

This sex offender has definitely been punished and he deserves to be. But I'm not seeing where the "rape culture" comes into play here. Nothing about the cultural response to his attack--starting with the passersby who immediately intervened to stop the attack--would seem to send a message other than that rape is a vile, unacceptable act that has no place in a civilized culture.

I do not deny that there have been disturbing reports in the news in recent years of sexual assaults where things have played out in a different way--where people have cheered attackers on, recorded videos of the attacks, and posted those videos on the web in an apparent celebration of the assault. I do not deny that in such cases "rape culture" may have come into play. But none of that dynamic seems to be in play in the Turner case. Society acted very firmly to stop Turner from the get go.

What am I missing here? Where is the "rape culture" that is said to have supported Turner's actions? To me this case should be held up as an example of the right way to stop a rapist--not as an example of "rape culture". Again--what am I missing?

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[gowlerk 2,072]

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Again--what am I missing?

Not much, and you make good points. Most of the outrage comes from 2 other factors. The victims well written and well publicize statement. And the father of the perp's statement. It is an example of rape culture.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[nolhtairt 0]

What's worse IMO is the scandal going on at Baylor University. Rape and sexual assault claims by victims were largely ignored or actions by the school to rectify them or punish the football players appropriately either never happened or got a slap on the wrist.

Baylor fired their president Ken Starr and head coach Briles and put their A.D. on probation IIRC...

[normiss 719]

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This sex offender has definitely been punished and he deserves to be.

No, he hasn't.
Not by a long shot.

The punishment for rape in California includes three (3), six (6) or eight (8) years in California state prison.

[SivaGanesha 2]

normiss

No, he hasn't.
Not by a long shot.

The punishment for rape in California includes three (3), six (6) or eight (8) years in California state prison.

He was never at risk for those penalties because his actions didn't meet the legal definition of rape in California. He has been punished based on the crime he was actually convicted of. You can argue that he should have been punished more harshly but arguing that he hasn't been punished at all isn't a defensible position IMHO.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[jcd11235 0]

normiss

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This sex offender has definitely been punished and he deserves to be.

No, he hasn't.
Not by a long shot.

The punishment for rape in California includes three (3), six (6) or eight (8) years in California state prison.

My understanding is that in California, rape involves non-consensual sexual intercourse. Turner's actions, while despicable, apparently did not meet the legal definition of rape. At the very least, he was not tried for or convicted of rape.

"Turner … was charged with five felony counts, later reduced to three: assault with intent to commit rape of an intoxicated or unconscious person, sexual penetration of an intoxicated person and sexual penetration of an unconscious person." Source

I'm inclined to give the judge the benefit of the doubt with respect to the appropriateness of the sentence. I was not on the jury, nor did I sit through the testimony.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[SivaGanesha 2]

gowlerk

Most of the outrage comes from 2 other factors. The victims well written and well publicize statement. And the father of the perp's statement. It is an example of rape culture.

I agree with the outrage against the father and also agree that the victim's statement was well written/spoken and extremely eloquent.

I mainly feel that the outrage against the judge is what is very misplaced here. Judges normally are expected to work within the sentencing guidelines as presented by probation officers who recommend a particular sentence. Occasionally an argument can be made for "upward departure" and maybe the judge should have exercised such discretion in this case--but I don't feel he deserves to lose his job simply for following the recommendation of the probation officer. Instead he should learn from the anger and perhaps go with harsher penalties in the future.

For Brock Turner I'd agree with a harsher penalty.

For the judge I feel losing his job is too harsh a penalty.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[normiss 719]

Given the way the penalties for the crime are written in California, he should easily have gotten 6 and all but guaranteed 3. Pleas are amazing when you have a good attorney.
There were no mitigating reasons to reduce that, other than wealth and a good attorney.
White privilege wins again.

[AndyBoyd 0]

normiss

White privilege wins again.

It's arguable that he should have received a longer term of incarceration. Mr. Turner, however, did not "win" anything. I'm not sure people realize what a harsh, life long penalty it is to have to live as a registered sex offender. It will be virtually impossible for him to find a decent paying job. He will be restricted as to where he can live. In Illinois, he would not be allowed in schools or public parks, or forest preserves. He could not have unsupervised contact with children. Every time he moves, he'll have to re-register with the police, or be subject to arrest. If he moves from one state to another and fails to re-register, he's subject to federal prosecution. In other words, life as he knew it is over for him. Forever. Maybe that's what he deserves. That's a topic, perhaps, for another thread. But he did not get off lightly. Living permanently as a convicted, registered sex offender is a tough life.

[wolfriverjoe 1,453]

AndyBoyd

***White privilege wins again.

It's arguable that he should have received a longer term of incarceration. Mr. Turner, however, did not "win" anything. I'm not sure people realize what a harsh, life long penalty it is to have to live as a registered sex offender. It will be virtually impossible for him to find a decent paying job. He will be restricted as to where he can live. In Illinois, he would not be allowed in schools or public parks, or forest preserves. He could not have unsupervised contact with children. Every time he moves, he'll have to re-register with the police, or be subject to arrest. If he moves from one state to another and fails to re-register, he's subject to federal prosecution. In other words, life as he knew it is over for him. Forever. Maybe that's what he deserves. That's a topic, perhaps, for another thread. But he did not get off lightly. Living permanently as a convicted, registered sex offender is a tough life.

That's all very true. But 6 months in jail (out in 3 with good behavior) is a pretty light sentence for 3 felonies.

Max sentence for 2nd offense OWI in Wisconsin is 6 months.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[normiss 719]

Sounds like a rape culture attitude to me.
Are you serious?
Fuck that guy.

[Kadde 0]

And for anyone who read or joined the bathroom discussion - this is apparently the guy you dont want in a bathroom with your daughter.

[SkyDekker 1,277]

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What am I missing here? Where is the "rape culture" that is said to have supported Turner's actions?

You are also missing the newspaper article reporting on the rape and listing his swim times to show what a marvelous athlete he is.

His proposed community service focussed on not drinking.

He didn't get more jail time because it would have a negative effect on him.

Never mind that you have people serving life sentences for doing much less severe crimes.

[DJL 232]

Kadde

And for anyone who read or joined the bathroom discussion - this is apparently the guy you dont want in a bathroom with your daughter.

I saw the infographic come across my FB feed and thought that was the dumbest interpretation of either of the issues that anyone could make.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[nolhtairt 0]

normiss

White privilege wins again.

O.J. Simpson must be white then.

[SivaGanesha 2]

normiss

Fuck that guy.

The more people say "fuck that guy" the more it proves my point. This guy has essentially zero cultural support outside of a tiny circle of family and close friends. This guy is a solitary, cowardly rapist who enjoys no support whatsoever from the wider culture. This wasn't a "The Accused" type scenario where he attacked a woman in front of a cheering crowd of frat brothers.

No--he attacked this woman in an isolated area of the campus where he thought he wouldn't be seen because he knew--despite his claims to be drunk himself--that what he was doing was shameful and he was ashamed to be seen doing what he was doing. I'm just not seeing where there was a "rape culture" that supported this guy.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[SivaGanesha 2]

He got a life sentence--a life sentence requiring to register, for life, as a sex offender. Some people seem very fixated on the prison component of his sentence and they aren't seeing the full picture. Time spent incarcerated is only one component of the sentencing process. You need to look at the whole picture. The incarceration part of this sentence was fairly lenient but the sex offender registration part is not so lenient--the overall message being sent to this lowlife is that society takes an extremely dim view of his actions.

Some people--not everyone to be sure--seem to be under the impression that a lifetime of sex offender registration is somehow just a slap on the wrist. It is not. Turner will never again be a completely free man even if his time physically behind bars is shorter than some would like. And he does not deserve to be a free man. But the idea that the judge was somehow winking at this behavior by a fellow Stanford athlete is not an accurate depiction of the sentence he received.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[SivaGanesha 2]

nolhtairt

O.J. Simpson must be white then.

I would compare Turner more with Mike Tyson. Tyson--also convicted of a sex crime--served more time in prison than Turner will but was also allowed to resume his boxing career after his prison term. Turner will--at least as I understand it--never again be able to swim competitively again. I would argue that Turner has been punished more harshly than Tyson despite the fact that the jail component of his punishment is a bit lighter.

And Turner deserves to be punished harshly. I'm just having a hard time seeing where this "rape culture" that is supposedly supporting him comes in.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[SivaGanesha 2]

normiss

There were no mitigating reasons to reduce that, other than wealth and a good attorney.

I won't dispute that having a good attorney helps. The attorney here did seem to manage to find a loophole in the law which allowed Turner to bypass what would have ordinarily been at least a 2 year minimum sentence for his crimes--hence the low jail component to the sentence.

I won't dispute that sometimes money talks but rapists seem increasingly reviled by rich and poor alike.

This case also shows the limits to what a good attorney can do too, though. It is my understanding that in such cases, an attorney--understanding the profound limitations that sex offender registration involves--will try to negotiate a plea bargain where the person agrees to serve some prison time on a non-sex crime so they avoid sex offender registration when they get out. Turner's attorneys apparently weren't able to negotiate such a plea bargain showing--again--that there is no sympathy for rapists when the evidence is strong.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[SkyDekker 1,277]

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I would compare Turner more with Mike Tyson.

You mean the guy who has been in movies and people tend to view pretty positively now?

Yeah he is indeed a clear example how sexual assault has had a lasting negative effect on his life.....

[piisfish 136]

normiss

Fuck that guy.

unless he agrees that would be a rape indeed

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[normiss 719]

Right up there with the violent felon Mark Wahlberg.

While sex offenders do seem to have a pretty tough time, the typical expectation of a felon having ruined their life seems almost rare in real life..

[rifleman 61]

Not actually related to this case but just interested to hear other people's opinions about a couple of issues:

1) How should the courts treat a woman who knowingly makes a false rape accusation.

2) Should anonymity be extended to both parties (not just the alleged victim) during the investigation and trial. By all means publicise the offender's name after a guilty verdict but not before.

Atheism is a Non-Prophet Organisation

[SivaGanesha 2]

As I said before, Tyson didn't lose everything: he got to keep his main potential tool (his boxing) for rebuilding his life.

Turner has lost everything AND has to register as a sex offender for life. A strong argument can certainly be made that he should have been punished even more severely but I'm having trouble with the idea that he has been treated so leniently that someone (like the judge) needs to lose their job over it.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[normiss 719]

I'm having a harder time understanding why he isn't in state prison for a minimum of 3 years per the state law.