If you love them, spay them

[winsor 186]

If, when LBJ announced the War on Poverty (tm), he had included the caveat that public assistance would not be available to fertile individuals, the rate of poverty today would be a fraction of what it now is.

At the present time, reversible sterilization changes the ethical dilemma of reverting to economic Eugenics; if you can afford to reverse the process during your childbearing years, and it is truly that important to you , there is the CHANCE you can afford to raise a kid. If you can't afford the reversal, you sure as hell can't afford more children.

I know it sounds harsh, but we do it to other species all the time. Also, if it is so important to breed at the drop of a hat, then by all means accept responsibility for the family you want. If you cannot shoulder the burden of the offspring you have already generated, you should relinquish the opportunity to generate more.

If you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em.

Along the same lines, people fleeing the political and economic strife in their homeland of Outer Shithole by entering this country without permission could be given the option of either submitting to complimentary reversible sterilization or return to place of origin. Subsequent reentry without permission would remove the optional and reversible part of the deal.

The Mitzvah to 'be fruitful and multiply' should include a 'Mission Accomplished' criterion.

With all the grousing about population-induced ills, the third rail in the discussion is how to limit the population.

In the more successful segments of society, the population is self-limiting. Students at Stanford and Yale do not tend to have anywhere near as many siblings as do kids on the dole.

If we are not willing to actively address the fundamental issues we face, we're fucked. Since we are burdened by a surfeit of denial on most of our major concerns, the issue is not so much if as when and how bad.


BSBD,

Winsor

[gowlerk 1,905]

The only part of that idea that is not offensive and impractical is the possibility of repressed of societies giving power to women to control their own fertility. The main reason poor people in non-industrialized societies over breed is that the females in them lack this ability.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[DiverMike 5]

wow - step away from the keyboard. Go jump and clear your head

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[rehmwa 2]

In an "it takes a village" society, this makes a ton of sense - everybody has to raise those kids, so society should get to choose who breeds and who doesn't

In a 'freedom' for individuals and individual rights and self responsibility and - make your own choices and butt out of others business and pay your own way - society. This is disgusting.

(It's even worse that it's couched in a falsely interpreted freedom based viewpoint - the whole premise is forcing people to not choose to make this choice for themselves. The bright point as already noted is the existence of the technology which would be a great empowerment for women and couples to control their own reproduction -if-they-choose-to-do-so)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[winsor 186]

rehmwa

In an "it takes a village" society, this makes a ton of sense - everybody has to raise those kids, so society should get to choose who breeds and who doesn't

In a 'freedom' for individuals and individual rights and self responsibility and - make your own choices and butt out of others business and pay your own way - society. This is disgusting.

(It's even worse that it's couched in a falsely interpreted freedom based viewpoint - the whole premise is forcing people to not choose to make this choice for themselves. The bright point as already noted is the existence of the technology which would be a great empowerment for women and couples to control their own reproduction -if-they-choose-to-do-so)

What you do or do not find palatable has nothing to do with the point.

A) There are too many people.

B) Fecundity is inversely proportional to affluence.

C) To reinforce the cycle of poverty, have kids you can't afford. Repeat as necessary.

D) Destitute people coming here illegally and following step C) are not doing themselves any favors.

E) Having criteria whereby those who are behind the economic power curve address the issue by curtailing their reproduction is beneficial to everyone involved. If it is important enough for them to go it alone, that's their call.

F) If you are insistent upon coming to this country illegally, and consider it important enough to stick around that you give up your ability to have kids, fine. Otherwise, you get to go back home where you retain said freedom. Your call.

If you come from a society where you have to have 12 kids for a couple to survive to adulthood and work the farm, that's cool as long as you stay there. That has been shown to work badly here, and the tuition for that lesson is paid in full repeatedly.

Do you have a better idea?

[billvon 2,396]

>In a 'freedom' for individuals and individual rights and self responsibility and - make your own choices
>and butt out of others business and pay your own way - society. This is disgusting.

Agreed.

Ensure that education (sex and otherwise) and contraceptives are easily available. Support laws that let women (and men) make their own informed choices on contraception. Then let _them_ decide.

Half a dozen studies have shown that the more educated a woman is, the fewer children she tends to have. That's a far better way to reduce birthrates than mandatory sterilization - especially if the government starts deciding who should get to reproduce.

[rehmwa 2]

winsor

If it is important enough for them to go it alone, that's their call.

To be philosophically consistent with what I typically push, I think I'd start here. (rather than end here)

Having kids should be a personal choice that's not governed or regulated by the government (so should be 'almost' everything). Personal choice is meaningless without personal responsibility.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

billvon

Ensure that education (sex and otherwise) and contraceptives are easily available.

so just a different form of nanny than Winsor's recommendation - indirect vs direct then?


education and contraceptives ARE easily available - people can pay or obtain them at their own effort and cost at any time. yet we still have a problem even if in the utopialand we give it away at someone else's cost. You can't tell me that the demand for contraceptives is so poor that we have prop up a market for it instead of it just happening

Quote

Support laws that let women (and men) make their own informed choices on contraception.

we shouldn't NEED laws to allow people to choose their own products, such as milk, or bread, or contraception - that's just silly. This should work in the absence of legislation, not require even more volume or nuance of laws. - Delete laws that get in the way, don't add more cosmetic legislation to make us feel good.

Quote

Then let _them_ decide.

yes, please. get out of the way and let people live their own lives. we do that by letting them decide, and making them own their decisions directly

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[normiss 622]

Move to West Virginia if this is what you want.
Oh wait, they stopped doing them as well.

Seems the US preferred to sterilize the stupid, the poor, and those they disliked while Mississippi sure liked to sterilize black women.
LGBT? You're getting sterilized.

Any reason given for forced sterilization is disgusting IMO.
Isn't it now considered a Crime Against Humanity by the International Criminal Court? While giving Russia a pass it seems...

[tkhayes 125]

Quote

Do you have a better idea?

yes, there are many in fact.

the issues you raise are all seemingly valid, even if stats likely do not support all of them.

we are overpopulated in the world in general, but jumping to the conclusion that forced sterilization as the probable cure when so many dozens of other things are already proven to be effective is like jumping to the conclusion that god made everything just because we have not explained everything in the universe yet.

[winsor 186]

tkhayes

Quote

Do you have a better idea?

yes, there are many in fact.

the issues you raise are all seemingly valid, even if stats likely do not support all of them.

we are overpopulated in the world in general, but jumping to the conclusion that forced sterilization as the probable cure when so many dozens of other things are already proven to be effective is like jumping to the conclusion that god made everything just because we have not explained everything in the universe yet.

Reading skills, sir - 'forced sterilization?'

My point is that, in order to have someone else shoulder the responsibility for one's self or one's offspring, one need relinquish the prospect of producing further offspring until such time as one can afford the (comparatively inexpensive) reversal procedure.

Hardly draconian.

If it is so overwhelmingly important to retain near-term breeding capability, that is the option of the individual involved. Obtain support elsewhere.

If you are not here legally, a condition for release into the community is, again, to relinquish the capacity to generate offspring through a reversible procedure. If you're not cool with that, fine, you get a free ticket back home.

Again, not particularly draconian.

There are a lot of places one can go besides the US of A to get relief from the oppressive regime du jour, and if we can persuade you to go there instead, so much the better.

The goal is not to sterilize people. It is to get people who can't afford kids to avoid having them, and to encourage people who are seeking a place to go outside of established procedures to pick another destination.

In Kennisaw, GA a citizen stormed in to the Sheriff's office and insisted that he would not adhere to the ordinance requiring firearm ownership.

The Sheriff said that was fine, the point was not so much that people had to own firearms as to provide the perception that everyone did. If the citizen who objected was working under the assumption that everyone had to be armed, so were the people considering burglary and robbery, and they would likely go somewhere else.

The Bouncing Betty was designed by the Germans as a psychological weapon. They found that a mine with a kilo of TNT would vaporize a soldier that stepped on it, but 18 year olds would still take the chance, since they would either luck out or cease to exist instantaneously.

However, a small charge designed to go off at testicle height right behind someone, while their legs were spread to take the next step, tended to do no lasting damage other than castration. The same 18 year olds who would grit their teeth and walk through a minefield full of antitank mines would walk for miles around an area suspected of having Bouncing Bettys - which was the goal in the first place.

Thus, the goal of my proposal is actually to curtail the FIRST unaffordable child, rather than to prevent further offspring once the commitment to poverty has been made, or to dissuade people from blithely zipping across the border without following procedure.

If the recommendation got the attention of the people on this forum, I assure you it would be taken into consideration by people considering these actions.


BSBD,

Winsor

[gowlerk 1,905]

This is remarkably like one of the most famous trolls ever done in the English language. Jonathon Swift's " A Modest Proposal". You should study it if have not already done so. It includes the following

Quote

”I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed is at a year old a most delicious, nourishing, and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled ...”

You can read his idea, which is far better than yours here:

http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[winsor 186]

gowlerk

This is remarkably like one of the most famous trolls ever done in the English language. Jonathon Swift's " A Modest Proposal". You should study it if have not already done so. It includes the following

Quote

”I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed is at a year old a most delicious, nourishing, and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled ...”

You can read his idea, which is far better than yours here:

http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html

We're familiar.

Can you come up with a better way to dissuade the indigent from using children as a cash crop, or people relocating to the U.S. outside of existing law?

[tkhayes 125]

your post is so full of inaccuracies and assumptions, it is quite difficult to know exactly where to begin. I will just stop now - it would obviously be like arguing with Ron who thinks the world is 6000 years old.

Quote

once the commitment to poverty has been made

immeasurable and undefinable

Quote

the goal of my proposal is actually to curtail the FIRST unaffordable child

undefinable

Quote

Again, not particularly draconian

Actually completely draconian in a country where the Supreme Court has already ruled Constitutionally that we pretty much have choices over our bodies. Except for example, Vaccines a public health issue - what you are advocating is not a health issue - it is an economic and education issue.

Quote

There are a lot of places one can go besides the US of A to get relief from the oppressive regime du jour, and if we can persuade you to go there instead, so much the better.

go fuck yourself. tired of people telling me to go somewhere else - you go somewhere else. Go to China or N Korea if you think this should be public policy. I live here and have every right to be here. I CHOOSE to be here and I will stay and fight ridiculous ideas like yours.

Quote

It is to get people who can't afford kids to avoid having them

immeasurable and undefinable

every goal should be
1. definable
2. attainable
3. measurable

your ideas are neither of these 3

[winsor 186]

tkhayes

your post is so full of inaccuracies and assumptions, it is quite difficult to know exactly where to begin. I will just stop now - it would obviously be like arguing with Ron who thinks the world is 6000 years old.

Quote

once the commitment to poverty has been made

immeasurable and undefinable

***the goal of my proposal is actually to curtail the FIRST unaffordable child

undefinable

Quote

Again, not particularly draconian

Actually completely draconian in a country where the Supreme Court has already ruled Constitutionally that we pretty much have choices over our bodies. Except for example, Vaccines a public health issue - what you are advocating is not a health issue - it is an economic and education issue.

Quote

There are a lot of places one can go besides the US of A to get relief from the oppressive regime du jour, and if we can persuade you to go there instead, so much the better.

go fuck yourself. tired of people telling me to go somewhere else - you go somewhere else. Go to China or N Korea if you think this should be public policy. I live here and have every right to be here. I CHOOSE to be here and I will stay and fight ridiculous ideas like yours.

Quote

It is to get people who can't afford kids to avoid having them

immeasurable and undefinable

every goal should be
1. definable
2. attainable
3. measurable

your ideas are neither of these 3

Nice try.

Statistics regarding single teen mothers, and the relationship between progeny and poverty, are publicly available. Their review is left as an exercise to the class.

Statistics regarding illegal immigration are publicly available. Their review is left as an exercise to the class.

The goals are thus definable and measurable, and the history of motivational regulations indicates they are entirely attainable.

The fact that you do not find them palatable is another issue entirely.

Your solution is...?

[gowlerk 1,905]

Quote

Can you come up with a better way to dissuade the indigent from using children as a cash crop, or people relocating to the U.S. outside of existing law?

Yes, of course I can. Summary execution. That is a well known and very effective means of eliminating undesirables from any population. And every bit as legal, likely, and practical as your proposal. And like your idea it would also have a profound prophylactic effect.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[DanG 1]

Quote

Yes, of course I can. Summary execution. That is a well known and very effective means of eliminating undesirables from any population. And every bit as legal, likely, and practical as your proposal. And like your idea it would also have a profound prophylactic effect.

Good plan.

Work camps for debtors would also be pretty effective. We could segregate the sexes so no new progeny would result. They would do productive work to benefit society. The State would, of course, have to feed, clothe, and house them, but they could work off that additional debt over the course of a few short years. While they are there we could provide them with education. If they have already finished school, we could call in something else. Maybe re-education.

- Dan G

[rehmwa 2]

DanG

Work camps for debtors would also be pretty effective. We could segregate the sexes so no new progeny would result. They would do productive work to benefit society. The State would, of course, have to feed, clothe, and house them, but they could work off that additional debt over the course of a few short years. While they are there we could provide them with education. If they have already finished school, we could call in something else. Maybe re-education.

You need to put down that Bernie Sanders pamphlet

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,396]

>education and contraceptives ARE easily available - people can pay or obtain them at their own
>effort and cost at any time.

They are here in the US. And we are at close to zero population growth through reproduction. Our population growth now comes from immigration, not reproduction.

Education and contraception are not easily available in places like sub-Saharan Africa - and they do have a population growth problem.

>we shouldn't NEED laws to allow people to choose their own products, such as milk, or bread, or
>contraception - that's just silly.

Agreed. But with so much effort going into reducing access to contraception, that freedom does need protecting. If you want to define that effort as "deleting laws that get in the way" that's fine too. Good example here - 20 states have laws that prevent minors from obtaining birth control. If the solution there is to delete those laws, then I am all for that.

However, as mentioned above, the US really isn't the problem - the problem are areas where contraceptives are not readily available and education (especially for women) is the exception, not the rule.

[rehmwa 2]

Bah!!!!

TYPICAL - once we talk it through, we find that we're pretty much on the same page

funny how that happens




But I don't feel right without a gratuitous false strawman or awkwardly constructed insult - ....... so here goes

{reset - deep breath}
SO - instead of admitting defeat, once again you (and your ilk) are just moving the goalposts! aren't you? Now we're taking a thread about the US and you move it sub-Saharan Africa? clearly the entire concept of social welfare is false based on this. You are only continuing the argument because you want to force transgender bathroom goers to buy electric cars. I'm enraged and astounded. I should get to order any size soft drink I want if I can afford it. Stay out of my booze.

For the children

(sorry, my heart really isn't into it)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[masterblaster72 0]

winsor

Do you have a better idea?

How about ensuring men just use the back hole? As an extra measure, how about sewing vaginas shut? I'm sure this can also be reversed when enough funds are in the bank.

I believe this is the direction Doug Stanhope was going when he made this video.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[rehmwa 2]

masterblaster72

***

Do you have a better idea?

How about ensuring men just use the back hole? As an extra measure, how about sewing vaginas shut? I'm sure this can also be reversed when enough funds are in the bank.

I believe this is the direction Doug Stanhope was going when he made this video.

see? when people of good will and intelligence start to brainstorm.......THAT's when innovation really happens

Nice job people - keep 'em comin'

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jcd11235 0]

rehmwa

when people of good will and intelligence start to brainstorm.......THAT's when innovation really happens

Nice job people - keep 'em comin'

Why not try abstinence?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Bolas 5]

If one want to cause real change, start at the beginning...

Make conception and maternity changes.

Just because we can help a morbidly obese woman have a child, should we or should we tell them that they need to lose weight first for the safety of themselves and the baby before we can help.

Just because we can save/revive a premie, is that what's best?

Instead of what we can do for people, maybe we should start looking at what's best for them and all of us.

The more centrally funded aspects of people lives are, the more individual choices impact others.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Bolas 5]

It's all about discovering the line between assistance and enablement and forcing people crossing it to be accountable for their (in)decisions.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.