Another "green" energy company bites the dust

[billvon 2,380]

speedy

Quote

***It will probably plateau around 50-60%, at which point it will simply keep pace with our further increases in power demand.

Why are you so pessimistic? I can see solar providing 100% within 60 years. If Saudi Arabia covered a substantial part of their desert with PV they could use the power to make synthetic liquid fuels.
It's only a question of EROEI. As long a that is positive it's doable.

so you greenies are perfectly ok with destroying all that habitat for desert-dwelling creatures in one fell swoop?
You've probably never seen a solar array, then. Desert animals seem to like them; they provide shade. Overall most of the ecological damage done by installation of solar-PV is caused by road construction in habitats in the desert. Pretty simple solution there - don't construct roads.

[wmw999 2,116]

Don't come to me with problems; look for solutions. That's what Trump would do.
I guess we'll just have to continue with coal then; it's proven technology, we have the infrastructure, and we understand it



Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[skypuppy 1]

pretty hard to build and maintain a solar array set-up without access roads, isn't it?

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[jcd11235 0]

skypuppy

pretty hard to build and maintain a solar array set-up without access roads, isn't it?

Such a strategy will have to wait until someone invents a vehicle capable of being driven on non-paved surfaces.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[billvon 2,380]

>pretty hard to build and maintain a solar array set-up without access roads, isn't it?

No. People build far larger structures without access roads.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

jcd11235

***pretty hard to build and maintain a solar array set-up without access roads, isn't it?

Such a strategy will have to wait until someone invents a vehicle capable of being driven on non-paved surfaces.

Even "all terrain" vehicles do damage. Ever seen what a field looks like after a tank (or similar tracked vehicle) goes through it?

Depends on what they need for the installation.

Around here, there are a lot of wind turbines going up. They need a pretty wide road to get the trucks down it. The ready mix trucks (cement mixers) for the foundation, the "oversize load" trucks with the pieces of the tower, the housing and the blades, that sort of thing.

They dump a lot of gravel to create those roads. After the tower is constructed, about half (or more) of the road width is removed. The gravel is scooped up and moved to the next site.
They leave enough of a road for maintenance vehicles (usually pickup trucks) to get in.

The majority of the turbines are installed in farm fields. The "make a road big enough to build it and then take out most of it but leave enough to get in to work on it" concept is the most practical. Taking out the entire road, then trailering in something that could get through the field in all conditions really isn't practical.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[billvon 2,380]

>Around here, there are a lot of wind turbines going up.

That's a bit different than solar.

Wind turbines involve installing components that weigh between a few and tens of tons. (The Vestas V164-8, the largest turbine in the world, has blades that weigh about 34 tons a piece.) The vehicles needed to carry them are pretty large and need roads designed for their weight. On the plus side a single installation can generate eight megawatts so you get a lot of power for that one road.

Solar installations (both PV and concentrating) require a LOT of components weighing between 50 and 200 pounds a piece. You can carry a lot of PV on the back of a lightweight vehicle.

[jcd11235 0]

wolfriverjoe

******pretty hard to build and maintain a solar array set-up without access roads, isn't it?

Such a strategy will have to wait until someone invents a vehicle capable of being driven on non-paved surfaces.

Even "all terrain" vehicles do damage.

As much damage as building a road?

I'm not sure how wind turbines are used in solar arrays.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[skypuppy 1]

jcd11235

***pretty hard to build and maintain a solar array set-up without access roads, isn't it?

Such a strategy will have to wait until someone invents a vehicle capable of being driven on non-paved surfaces.

In many places people are discouraged from WALKING off established trails due to the damage they inflict on the environment - and you suggest that 4 wd vehicles hauling loads won't?

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[billvon 2,380]

>In many places people are discouraged from WALKING off established trails due to the damage they
>inflict on the environment - and you suggest that 4 wd vehicles hauling loads won't?

Of course it will do damage. You might run over a bug.

The issue is - how much damage? Plenty of other structures (power transmission lines, cellphone towers, microwave relays) have been installed in sensitive areas with minimal impact. It can certainly be done.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

jcd11235

***

Even "all terrain" vehicles do damage.

As much damage as building a road?

I'm not sure how wind turbines are used in solar arrays.

I was comparing the need for building a road. Billvon pointed out that the requirements for a solar array are significantly different than for a wind turbine.

And as far as damage goes, "it depends." How much gear needs to go in? How many vehicle trips? How big of a vehicle?

A rutted trail can be more damaging than a gravel road that stays intact. Partly due to erosion (not that big of a deal in the desert), partly due to when the trail gets bad, people tend to cut a new one.
There are some off road horror stories about places where the official trail got rutted, so the riders started going "a bit to the side" and eventually a fairly narrow trail ended up being as wide as a four lane road, with total devastation and serious erosion issues.

I would think that with a bit of thought and planning, these sorts of installations could be done with minimal impact.

Its just that the installers have to think (and pay for) that sort of thing. Which doesn't often happen unless there's a strong regulatory "'incentive".

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Bill,

Quote

power transmission lines, cellphone towers, microwave relays

I have ran projects for all three of these types of structures. Fortunately, I have never had any real problems with access.

However, some of our projects have had transmission towers where the parts were taken in by mule ( and not that many years ago ). We also had ( and probably still do ) a req'ment that all concrete had to be poured within 45 minutes of initial mixing. Quite often this meant bringing the mix in by helicopter due to the time constraints.

Many, many projects can be built in remote areas with almost no damage to the environment; except, of course, the local environment directly around the project site.

Jerry Baumchen

[brenthutch 383]

http://news.heartland.org/newspaper-article/2010/03/31/los-angeles-abandons-renewable-transmission-line-after-environmental-pr

[kallend 1,620]

brenthutch

http://news.heartland.org/newspaper-article/2010/03/31/los-angeles-abandons-renewable-transmission-line-after-environmental-pr

Heartland Institute

Ha
Ha Ha
Ha Ha Ha

Get real, please.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[brenthutch 383]

Suffering from a bit of message/messenger inversion I see. Perhaps you should cut back on your medicinal marijuana. It is obviously interfering with your cognitive functions.

[kallend 1,620]

brenthutch

Suffering from a bit of message/messenger inversion I see. Perhaps you should cut back on your medicinal marijuana. It is obviously interfering with your cognitive functions.

When you quote a source with negative credibility, expect to be called on it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[brenthutch 383]

Soooo you are saying that the article is wrong and in fact the Green Path North Transmission Line was built? Interesting...

[brenthutch 383]

kallend

***Suffering from a bit of message/messenger inversion I see. Perhaps you should cut back on your medicinal marijuana. It is obviously interfering with your cognitive functions.

When you quote a source with negative credibility, expect to be called on it.

This might be more your speed.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/11/controversial-green-path-_n_495101.html

I guess lefties find the HuffPo to be more truthy.

[gowlerk 1,902]

brenthutch

Soooo you are saying that the article is wrong and in fact the Green Path North Transmission Line was built? Interesting...

As something of a "greenie" myself. ( I think everyone is at least a little green, even you.) I'm curious why you linked to the article. Are you gloating that some renewable energy will have a harder time getting to market? Or are you just super happy about the landscape of the parks being saved? What's your point?

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[turtlespeed 212]

wolfriverjoe

******pretty hard to build and maintain a solar array set-up without access roads, isn't it?

Such a strategy will have to wait until someone invents a vehicle capable of being driven on non-paved surfaces.

Even "all terrain" vehicles do damage. Ever seen what a field looks like after a tank (or similar tracked vehicle) goes through it?

Depends on what they need for the installation.

Around here, there are a lot of wind turbines going up. They need a pretty wide road to get the trucks down it. The ready mix trucks (cement mixers) for the foundation, the "oversize load" trucks with the pieces of the tower, the housing and the blades, that sort of thing.

They dump a lot of gravel to create those roads. After the tower is constructed, about half (or more) of the road width is removed. The gravel is scooped up and moved to the next site.
They leave enough of a road for maintenance vehicles (usually pickup trucks) to get in.

The majority of the turbines are installed in farm fields. The "make a road big enough to build it and then take out most of it but leave enough to get in to work on it" concept is the most practical. Taking out the entire road, then trailering in something that could get through the field in all conditions really isn't practical.

This looks big enough to take care of it. Strip her down and load her up with men and parts. Smaller vehicles could be transport and support for this mobile construction facility.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoverspeed#/media/File%3ASRN4_Hovercraft_Mountbatten_Class.jpg

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rushmc 18]

billvon

***

Quote

***It will probably plateau around 50-60%, at which point it will simply keep pace with our further increases in power demand.

Why are you so pessimistic? I can see solar providing 100% within 60 years. If Saudi Arabia covered a substantial part of their desert with PV they could use the power to make synthetic liquid fuels.
It's only a question of EROEI. As long a that is positive it's doable.

so you greenies are perfectly ok with destroying all that habitat for desert-dwelling creatures in one fell swoop?
You've probably never seen a solar array, then. Desert animals seem to like them; they provide shade. Overall most of the ecological damage done by installation of solar-PV is caused by road construction in habitats in the desert. Pretty simple solution there - don't construct roads.

The birds don't
I think they are calling them streamers these days...

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[turtlespeed 212]

rushmc

******

Quote

***It will probably plateau around 50-60%, at which point it will simply keep pace with our further increases in power demand.

Why are you so pessimistic? I can see solar providing 100% within 60 years. If Saudi Arabia covered a substantial part of their desert with PV they could use the power to make synthetic liquid fuels.
It's only a question of EROEI. As long a that is positive it's doable.

so you greenies are perfectly ok with destroying all that habitat for desert-dwelling creatures in one fell swoop?
You've probably never seen a solar array, then. Desert animals seem to like them; they provide shade. Overall most of the ecological damage done by installation of solar-PV is caused by road construction in habitats in the desert. Pretty simple solution there - don't construct roads.

The birds don't
I think they are calling them streamers these days...

Why are you so AGAINST wind power?
You can't reasonably tell me that you all of a sudden grew an affinity to fowl and its survival.

I bet you were pretty against saving that little fish in the California wetland area that was in dispute, weren't you?

Cell towers kill FAR more birds than do wind turbines.

Why aren't you on here lobbying for cell towers to be dismantled?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/09/15/wind-turbines-kill-fewer-birds-than-cell-towers-cats/15683843/

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rushmc 18]

turtlespeed

*********

Quote

***It will probably plateau around 50-60%, at which point it will simply keep pace with our further increases in power demand.

Why are you so pessimistic? I can see solar providing 100% within 60 years. If Saudi Arabia covered a substantial part of their desert with PV they could use the power to make synthetic liquid fuels.
It's only a question of EROEI. As long a that is positive it's doable.

so you greenies are perfectly ok with destroying all that habitat for desert-dwelling creatures in one fell swoop?
You've probably never seen a solar array, then. Desert animals seem to like them; they provide shade. Overall most of the ecological damage done by installation of solar-PV is caused by road construction in habitats in the desert. Pretty simple solution there - don't construct roads.

The birds don't
I think they are calling them streamers these days...

Why are you so AGAINST wind power?
You can't reasonably tell me that you all of a sudden grew an affinity to fowl and its survival.

I bet you were pretty against saving that little fish in the California wetland area that was in dispute, weren't you?

Cell towers kill FAR more birds than do wind turbines.

Why aren't you on here lobbying for cell towers to be dismantled?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/09/15/wind-turbines-kill-fewer-birds-than-cell-towers-cats/15683843/

My comment was in regards to solar arrays in the desert.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,620]

brenthutch

Soooo you are saying that the article is wrong and in fact the Green Path North Transmission Line was built? Interesting...

Even a stopped clock is right occasionally, but no-one intelligent considers the time it shows to be authoritative.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[turtlespeed 212]

rushmc

************

Quote

***It will probably plateau around 50-60%, at which point it will simply keep pace with our further increases in power demand.

Why are you so pessimistic? I can see solar providing 100% within 60 years. If Saudi Arabia covered a substantial part of their desert with PV they could use the power to make synthetic liquid fuels.
It's only a question of EROEI. As long a that is positive it's doable.

so you greenies are perfectly ok with destroying all that habitat for desert-dwelling creatures in one fell swoop?
You've probably never seen a solar array, then. Desert animals seem to like them; they provide shade. Overall most of the ecological damage done by installation of solar-PV is caused by road construction in habitats in the desert. Pretty simple solution there - don't construct roads.

The birds don't
I think they are calling them streamers these days...

Why are you so AGAINST wind power?
You can't reasonably tell me that you all of a sudden grew an affinity to fowl and its survival.

I bet you were pretty against saving that little fish in the California wetland area that was in dispute, weren't you?

Cell towers kill FAR more birds than do wind turbines.

Why aren't you on here lobbying for cell towers to be dismantled?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/09/15/wind-turbines-kill-fewer-birds-than-cell-towers-cats/15683843/

My comment was in regards to solar arrays in the desert.

Yep - you did.

Still stands true - many more birds are killed because of cell towers than solar farms.

Why are you not even slightly complaining about cell towers.

. . . takes roads to build those too. Just sayin

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun