0
kallend

Mississippi needs armed guards in churches

Recommended Posts

Quote

It's not important whether the concepts of any particular religion make sense or not. What's important is that you understand that's what people believe. You're not gonna get anywhere by simply dismissing them.



If you ask a question and the answer doesn't make sense then the question still stands. Like;

Q: Why do you need protection in God's house?

A: [Something about Jesus not leaving the cross]

Q: Yeah but seriously, why do you need protection in God's house?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>Now that may not make sense to you, but if we're gonna have a discussion about biblical concepts, why
>not treat it like any other literary discourse and look at what the words actually say, rather than what
>we think it should say?

Because many Christians won't do that.

"What about what it says in Leviticus?"
"Well, you have to ignore what that actually says, it was a different time. Think about what it _means._"
"Didn't Moses order his men to kill all the men, children and non-virgins in the city, and keep the virgins for themselves?"
"Again, that's not really fair. It's the Old Testament. You have to ignore what it says, and instead understand what the author _meant_."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>Yeah, nobody has a problem with the part when Jesus says that he who is without sin cast the first
>stone, and then decides not to condemn the adulterer. . .

>. . .but when he said "Go now and leave your life of sin," that's enough to label you as a bigot these
>days.

If you believe someone is sinning because they are fat (gluttony) sexually active (lust) gay (??) rich (greed) marrying a black woman (interracial marriage) etc that's fine. I may disagree but you can believe whatever you like. The lesson above is that if you ACT on those beliefs - say, try to stone a woman caught having sex with another man, or try to outlaw gay marriage, or refuse service to black women - then you are going against what Jesus taught.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My world view is of acceptance and fair treatment of everyone.
Seems like it's part of what we are as a country.
I won't tolerate having religious behavior force fed to us is every facet of life.
I understand christians don't see it that way, their god tells them to not do those things. So how about not doing what you believe is wrong and stop judging, penalizing, and hating others that live differently?
You're all going to heaven anyway, you're all set, good to go!
Leave everyone to their own demise.
Some of us are happier that way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Coreeece


. . . as a bunch of "bullshit created by man to control others,"



Are you saying it's not?
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jakee

Why do you need protection in God's house



What does that mean, "God's house?" A church is no different than any other building. I thought the whole idea was that the spirit of God lived within us.

The idea of "God's House" is taught by the catholics - that God dwells in the tabernacle in the form of a wheat flour wafer - it doesn't make sense to me, but I understand why they believe it. The idea was hijacked from Judaism - it was believed that God dwelt in the Holy of Holies. Christian scripture clearly explains why that's no longer the case.

...but anyway, to answer your question - we believe the wage of sin is death. As christians, we understand our sinfulness and know that we will die one way or another. I suppose we still fear the uncertainties of death like most people and will protect our lives in whatever way we can.

I suppose it's similar to the same reason why I don't close my eyes and reach to the heavens singing "Jesus take the wheel" while driving 193kmh down the the bloody motorway - it's not biblical.
Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
billvon

>Now that may not make sense to you, but if we're gonna have a discussion about biblical concepts, why
>not treat it like any other literary discourse and look at what the words actually say, rather than what
>we think it should say?

Because many Christians won't do that.

"What about what it says in Leviticus?"
"Well, you have to ignore what that actually says, it was a different time. Think about what it _means._"
"Didn't Moses order his men to kill all the men, children and non-virgins in the city, and keep the virgins for themselves?"
"Again, that's not really fair. It's the Old Testament. You have to ignore what it says, and instead understand what the author _meant_."



I think the difference between the law and grace has been explained ad nauseam in this forum and throughout the entire interweb for the last 20 years. There are also plenty of examples within scripture itself that explain it rather clearly.

I suppose the only reason why one would still appear to be in the dark on the issue, would be that they are either looking for reasons to justify their disbelief, or to ridicule those that actually do believe.
Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
turtlespeed

***
. . . as a bunch of "bullshit created by man to control others,"



Are you saying it's not?

I can't speak to the mental state of Constantine - whether or not his intentions were sincere, I couldn't possibly know - but if there was some type of tinfoil conspiracy to control the minds of men I would expect there to be some evidence.

Even if you believe Constantine and others like him had sinister motives to use religion for self serving purposes, the scripture they used was written hundreds of years prior to their term in power, so it couldn't have possibly be written for that purpose.

Also, whether you've experienced it or not, christian scripture is rather quite liberating. It's really not the ideal literature you'd want to use to control the masses - which is ultimately why the Catholic Church created it's own doctrine that's in complete opposition to scripture - such as indulgences, that ultimately convinced their parishioners to pay a monetary sum in order to bring their loved ones out of purgatory - yet another anti-biblical doctrine.

Up until recently, the Catholic church discouraged reading scripture - only the priests could possibly understand. They even held services in Latin so that nobody knew wtf they were talking about.
Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>I think the difference between the law and grace has been explained ad nauseam in this forum

Indeed it has. When it comes to the laws in the Bible, you ignore what the words say and talk about your interpretation of them. Then you demand that others look at what the words actually say in the sections you choose to believe literally.

You can believe whatever you like. So can other people. And their interpretations of their holy books are no more valid or invalid than yours.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
billvon

>I think the difference between the law and grace has been explained ad nauseam in this forum

Indeed it has. When it comes to the laws in the Bible, you ignore what the words say and talk about your interpretation of them.



When, where?

billvon

You can believe whatever you like. So can other people. And their interpretations of their holy books are no more valid or invalid than yours.



That's fine, and we can discuss it - but what Kallend did was completely dismiss a concept without any explanation or interpretation.
Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I suppose it's similar to the same reason why I don't close my eyes and reach to the heavens singing "Jesus take the wheel" while driving 193kmh down the the bloody motorway - it's not biblical.



Why isn't it?

I don't understand why people talk about life and afterlife. If what happens after you die on earth lasts forever, that is your existence. That is your life, not this. This is but the briefest prelude so why does anyone even care about it?

It wouldn't be life and afterlife it would be teaser trailer and life.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jakee

Quote

I suppose it's similar to the same reason why I don't close my eyes and reach to the heavens singing "Jesus take the wheel" while driving 193kmh down the the bloody motorway - it's not biblical.



Why isn't it?

I don't understand why people talk about life and afterlife. If what happens after you die on earth lasts forever, that is your existence. That is your life, not this. This is but the briefest prelude so why does anyone even care about it?

It wouldn't be life and afterlife it would be teaser trailer and life.



Many Christians refer to this existence as the probation period during which time you get to choose where you will spend eternity.

One choice is to ignore the gift from Christ and spend eternity in complete separation from God. Most believe that is some form of total misery and pain.

The other choice is to accept the gift of eternal life and ask Jesus to enter your heart. Then you spend eternity with a constant supply of life in communication with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Doing nothing is making a choice for the former. To see the light you have to reach for and turn on the switch.

All of this type of thinking requires some understanding of the spiritual realm. Some have it and some do not. The Bible states that in the end times there will be a great apostasy. I see that prophecy being fulfilled here on an almost daily basis.

No Christian, regardless of position, has any control over any other Christian. The movement is not about control. It is about sharing the good thing.

I think about the church building as a clubhouse. I think about tithes as paying club or association dues, like the USPA. These monies are used to maintain the local association and to share with the less fortunate. We get together and generally have a good time but we have our problems, like the USPA.

We believe there are those people that do not like us to the point of hate, also in Bible prophecy. I see that here on almost a daily basis. Therefore, we don't want our assemblies to be a target rich environment. Consequently, some of us carry weapons to protect our loved ones and ourselves. As a Christian parachutist I always used a parachute rig equipped with a reserve. It just makes good sense.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Coreeece

***Why do you need protection in God's house



What does that mean, "God's house?" A church is no different than any other building. I thought the whole idea was that the spirit of God lived within us.



Matthew 18:20

"For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

Maybe poorly translated, but "among"<> "within".
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jakee

Quote

I suppose it's similar to the same reason why I don't close my eyes and reach to the heavens singing "Jesus take the wheel" while driving 193kmh down the the bloody motorway - it's not biblical.



Why isn't it?

I don't understand why people talk about life and afterlife. If what happens after you die on earth lasts forever, that is your existence. That is your life, not this. This is but the briefest prelude so why does anyone even care about it?

It wouldn't be life and afterlife it would be teaser trailer and life.



I can't remember ever using that term, and I know I haven't ever used it in this forum. A quick search seemed to reveal that the majority of those that used the term in this forum appeared to be atheists/non-religious. Even Marinus at one time was rambling on about how an atheist can still believe in an afterlife.

I don't think the term is even used in scripture. It just refers to it as either "life" or "eternal life."

But I understand what you're getting at. It seems today that most Christians don't have an eternal perspective on life. From my memory, it often seemed to be a topic of discussion/sermons at church.

When I first became a christian 10 years ago, I seemed to have had this fearless confidence in my faith and took extraordinary risks - but back then in my 20's I didn't have anyone that depended on me as I do now.

...but put simply, a lack of an eternal perspective is merely a lack of faith.

Eternal life is a spiritual concept, and as I noted earlier, "the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other"

When Christ's followers fell sleep rather than stay up and pray, He explained that "The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak" - likewise, we tend to focus more on the physical aspects of this world rather than having a spiritual, eternal perspective.
Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
normiss

New here?
;)



I expect dead horse beatings. I was just a little (only a little) bit surprised by how circular the arguments are.

on one side of the argument it seems there are religious (to varying degrees) people who want to be able to defend themselves. On the other side there are people mocking christian beliefs saying that the first group shouldn't need to defend themselves in a church because their god should do it for them. When the first group is only citing a list of rights enumerated by founding fathers that are described in the enumerating document as endowed by our creator.


so what it comes down to is the second group being whiney bitches complaining about the first group carrying guns (or wanting to) into some place the second group isn't likely to be anyway.

This thread is even MORE petty than I'm used to here.
--
Rob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

...but put simply, a lack of an eternal perspective is merely a lack of faith.



Wait, you didn't say it was about faith, you said it wasn't biblical. Why is it biblical to care about maintaining this fleeting existence when the same awesome thing will happen to you after you die whether it's now or in 50 years?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jakee

Quote

...but put simply, a lack of an eternal perspective is merely a lack of faith.



Wait, you didn't say it was about faith, you said it wasn't biblical. Why is it biblical to care about maintaining this fleeting existence when the same awesome thing will happen to you after you die whether it's now or in 50 years?



Well it still all comes down to faith - you'd still have to believe that that awesome thing is gonna happen to you after you die.

Personally tho, I think that's a rather self-centered perspective to have as a believer - "to hell with this world and these people - I can taste their stink! I'm just gonna checkout now and take all that's been promised!"

But since you asked, biblically, it's not really about the individual. Christ prayed that we are not to be taken out of this world. That he has sent us into the world, just as He was sent into the world.

John 17:15
I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.

John 17:18
As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.

John 17:20
I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word.

The entire chapter of John 17 linked below should offer more insight if anyone cares:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+17
Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

But since you asked, biblically, it's not really about the individual. Christ prayed that we are not to be taken out of this world.



But people are taken out of the world all the time. Everyone leaves the world sooner or later - and in the context of eternity sooner isn't any sooner than later anyway.

Quote

John 17:15
I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.



Being taken isn't the same as going. "Don't make your children join the army" isn't the same statement as "Your children shouldn't join the army". (Just an example - feel free to substitute any other profession or life choice.


I don't see anything in that whole passage that speaks to whether or not the bible says you should try not to die.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jakee

Quote

But since you asked, biblically, it's not really about the individual. Christ prayed that we are not to be taken out of this world.



But people are taken out of the world all the time. Everyone leaves the world sooner or later - and in the context of eternity sooner isn't any sooner than later anyway.



But collectively, if we were all taken from the world or chose to drink kool-aid in hopes of experiencing the finer things of eternal life, there wouldn't be anyone here to evangelize future believers as stated in Jn 17:20 that I posted.

jakee


I don't see anything in that whole passage that speaks to whether or not the bible says you should try not to die.



Earlier on in the thread, I think Ron posted Luke 22:36 about buying a sword. I could be wrong, but I'd imagine that buying a sword might have something to do with trying not to die.

...but to your point, there's probably more verses about sacrificing your life for another person, rather than trying to save your own arse or way of life. (just to be clear - IMO, I don't think sacrificing your life for someone else necessarily has to mean physical death.)

Also, just because something isn't biblical, doesn't necessarily mean that it's wrong. What's more important is whether or not it's contrary to scripture.
Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

But collectively, if we were all taken from the world or chose to drink kool-aid in hopes of experiencing the finer things of eternal life, there wouldn't be anyone here to evangelize future believers as stated in Jn 17:20 that I posted.



So?

Quote

...but to your point, there's probably more verses about sacrificing your life for another person, rather than trying to save your own arse or way of life.



What's so great about saving someone's life? It's not like you're doing them a favour, is it?

Quote

Also, just because something isn't biblical, doesn't necessarily mean that it's wrong.



Oh, very true. Kinda doubt you meant it in the way I'm reading it though...
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0