"Drill, baby, drill"

[gowlerk 1,910]

Quote

Change is good, well, unless it's the climate.

Are you kidding? I live in Winterpeg. Bring it on. Our climate here will end up like Kansas. Iowa will bake like Texas though. And who cares if first Miami and later on NYC go under the waves? They are both full of people who don't matter anyway.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[brenthutch 383]

SkyDekker

***How many billions of dollars did the Department of Energy spend to ease the transition from wood to coal, or from coal to oil?

Not sure what business you work in, but where I work "that's not how we used to do it" is not a valid objection.

How about "that's what works?" Sort of how we shifted from coal to natural gas.
Keep in mind that back in 2002, the USGS estimated that the Marcellus Shale would yield only 2 Tcf of natural gas. (The same Brainiacs you want to guide our energy future) The new median Marcellus shale gas estimate is now 84 Tcf, and growing.
The human species may eventually travel the stars, should we spend billions of dollars on warp drive technology? After all it is never to soon to waste billions on hair-brained schemes, all the better if they don't work. Aka wind and solar.

[billvon 2,396]

> They aim at "Big Coal" and hit consumers and taxpayers.

And save the lives of Americans who will no longer die due to particulate pollution. Not a bad hit.

[rushmc 18]

billvon

> They aim at "Big Coal" and hit consumers and taxpayers.

And save the lives of Americans who will no longer die due to particulate pollution. Not a bad hit.

Ah yes

All those imaginary people who die

what a strong argument

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[gowlerk 1,910]

All those imaginary people who die

http://www.rmi.org/RFGraph-health_effects_from_US_power_plant_emissions


Here you go. Bad news for the deadenders. But they won't see it because they keep their heads where the sun don't shine.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[kallend 1,623]

rushmc

***> They aim at "Big Coal" and hit consumers and taxpayers.

And save the lives of Americans who will no longer die due to particulate pollution. Not a bad hit.

Ah yes

All those imaginary people who die

what a strong argument

And then there are these and this

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

Nothing behind the numbers

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[brenthutch 383]

billvon

> They aim at "Big Coal" and hit consumers and taxpayers.

And save the lives of Americans who will no longer die due to particulate pollution. Not a bad hit.

As tragic as particulate pollution deaths are, they pale in comparison to low frequency sound syndrome deaths.

[turtlespeed 212]

brenthutch

***> They aim at "Big Coal" and hit consumers and taxpayers.

And save the lives of Americans who will no longer die due to particulate pollution. Not a bad hit.

As tragic as particulate pollution deaths are, they pale in comparison to low frequency sound syndrome deaths.

HOW FUGGIN DARE YOU?

That is just Blasphemy!

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[gowlerk 1,910]

Yeah, coal, no health problems there. None at all. Not even in Bejing! You guys have pretty much lost your credibility on this one. Deadenders always go down deadend roads.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[kallend 1,623]

rushmc

Nothing behind the numbers

What an absurd statement. Have you now lost it completely?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

gowlerk

Yeah, coal, no health problems there. None at all. Not even in Bejing! You guys have pretty much lost your credibility on this one. Deadenders always go down deadend roads.

Not what I said.

But then deadenders try to twist posts.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[brenthutch 383]

http://www.caithnesswindfarms.co.uk/accidents.pdf

And this horror is just in the UK, the situation in the US is much worse

http://savetheeaglesinternational.org/new/us-windfarms-kill-10-20-times-more-than-previously-thought.html

Birds and bats think coal mining is just fine.

[billvon 2,396]

>As tragic as particulate pollution deaths are, they pale in comparison to low frequency sound syndrome
>deaths.

Ah. You have once again confused science for Breitbart.

Did you know that reading Breitbart can leave you impotent? Look it up. I didn't.

[turtlespeed 212]

billvon

>As tragic as particulate pollution deaths are, they pale in comparison to low frequency sound syndrome
>deaths.

Ah. You have once again confused science for Breitbart.

Did you know that reading Breitbart can leave you impotent? Look it up. I didn't.

Several of those sights will give ewe hed akes again, two!

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,396]

>Nothing behind the numbers

Other than science.

This sounds like the smoking denial of the 70's all over again. "That smoke isn't bad for you lungs! That's just alarmist propaganda; they don't want you to be happy, and they hate hardworking tobacco executives. Those particulates, tars and drugs relax and calm you, preventing heart attacks and strokes. Why, I bought a doctor just the other day who said that."

That's a paraphrase, of course. Here's what they actually said:

"There is a . .real association between carcinoma of the lung and smoking." - British Medical Journal, 1952.

"We have one essential job -- which can be simply said: Stop public panic ... There is only one problem – confidence, and how to establish it; public assurance, and how to create it . . . And, most important, how to free millions of Americans from the guilty fear that is going to arise deep in their biological depths – regardless of any pooh-poohing logic - every time they light a cigarette." PR firm for RJR Reynolds, 1953

"1. That medical research of recent years indicates many possible causes of lung cancer.
2. That there is no agreement among the authorities regarding what the cause is.
3. That there is no proof that cigarette smoking is one of the causes.
4. That statistics purporting to link smoking with the disease could apply with equal force to any one of many other aspects of modern life. Indeed the validity of the statistics themselves are questioned by numerous scientists." - Tobacco Industry Research Committee, 1954

"There still isn't a single shred of substantial evidence to link cigarette smoking and lung cancer directly." - RJR, 1954

"I state that in our considered opinion there is no proof at all that smoking causes lung cancer and much to suggest that it cannot be the cause." - Imperial Tobacco, 1956

"With one exception the individuals with whom we met [at tobacco company labs] believed that smoking causes lung cancer; if by ‘causation’ we mean any chain of events which leads finally to lung cancer and which involves smoking as an indispensable link." - Bureau of Alcohol and Tobacco, 1958 ("but . . . but . . . there's no consensus!")

"It is recommended that the Company’s management recognize that many members of its Research Department are intensely concerned about the cigarette smoke-health problem and eager to participate in its study and solution." - Scientist for RJR, 1962

“We don’t accept the idea that there are harmful agents in tobacco." - Philip Morris, 1964

"The most important type of story is that which casts doubt in the cause and effect theory of disease and smoking. Eye-grabbing headlines were needed and should strongly call out the point – controversy! Contradiction! Other Factors! Unknowns!" - Tobacco industry adviser, 1968

“No case against cigarette smoking has ever been made despite millions spent on research ...The longer these tests go on, the better our case becomes.” -Philip Morris, 1968

“Let's face it. We are interested in evidence which we believe denies the allegations that cigarette smoking causes disease.” - Philip Morris, 1970

Problem was, their own labs were telling them over and over that smoking caused cancer. What to do?

"We felt we were on the road to making a discovery of a cause and effect relationship to a clinical disease . . . I think the company’s lawyers felt that the type of work we were doing was potentially damaging to the company itself and policy was that that wouldn’t happen and that was the Legal Department’s policy.” - RJR scientist, shortly after his lab was shut down.

The "I am not a scientist, but . . ." angle starts to fail.

"I believe it will not be possible indefinitely to maintain the rather hollow ‘we are not doctors’ stance and that, in due course, we shall have to come up in public with a more positive approach towards cigarette safety.” Scientist from British American Tobacco, 1972

“None of the things which have been found in tobacco smoke are at concentrations which can be considered harmful. Anything can be considered harmful. Apple sauce is harmful if you get too much of it.” - Philip Morris 1976

“The view that smoking causes specific diseases remains an opinion or a judgement, and not an established scientific fact.” - Tobacco Institute, 1989

"He said, 'We don’t smoke that shit. We just sell it. We just reserve the right to smoke for the young, the poor, the black and the stupid.' " - Tobacco commercial actor describing what an RJR Reynolds executive told him. 1992.

It's remarkable how the topic changes (the link between smoking and lung cancer, the link between particulate pollution and cancer, the link between anthropogenic emissions and climate change) but the denials are pretty much exactly the same. Any time there is money to be made in denial, the same playbook, and often the same players, get trotted out again.

[GTAVercetti 0]

billvon

>Nothing behind the numbers

Other than science.

Well, that is where you lost me, bill. What has science ever proven or done for me?

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[ryoder 1,382]

GTAVercetti

***>Nothing behind the numbers

Other than science.

Well, that is where you lost me, bill. What has science ever proven or done for me?

"What have the Romans ever done for us?"

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[GTAVercetti 0]

ryoder

******>Nothing behind the numbers

Other than science.

Well, that is where you lost me, bill. What has science ever proven or done for me?

"What have the Romans ever done for us?"

The aqueduct..and sanitation...roads (obviously)...

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[billvon 2,396]

>The aqueduct..and sanitation...roads (obviously)...

Yeah, yeah, wise guy. But apart from sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for ME?

[normiss 622]

That comment actually appears to be accurate...when you look at these numbers

[rushmc 18]

We are not talking about smoking

the numbers regarding coal fired plants as most of them operate to day is a WAG as best

People write numbers in something they call a report and people like you buy

I get that

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,396]

>the numbers regarding coal fired plants as most of them operate to day is a WAG as best

Yep, you have summed up industry denial quite succinctly. Coal or tobacco doesn't matter much; the message is the same.

"The view that coal power plant pollution contributes to specific diseases remains an opinion or a judgement, and not an established scientific fact."

"There still isn't a single shred of substantial evidence to link coal power plants and lung disease directly."

"I state that in our considered opinion there is no proof at all that coal power plants cause lung disease and much to suggest that it cannot be the cause."

"No case against coal power has ever been made despite millions spent on research ...The longer these tests go on, the better our case becomes."

"None of the things which have been found in coal exhaust are at concentrations which can be considered harmful. Anything can be considered harmful. Apple sauce is harmful if you get too much of it."

Same stuff, different day.

>People write numbers in something they call a report and people like you buy

I know! All them big suspicious numbers that scientists use, with all them digits and little fake numbers above em at the end. Sometimes they put e or i in their numbers too; stupid scientists even think that letters are numbers!

Well, they just put all them numbers in reports because people pay for them! Probably why they add those e's and i's too - to pad their wallets. Come to think of it, I've always been suspicious of those numbers. In fact, I just found out that some people call them Arabic numerals. Scientists must support terrorism.

[GTAVercetti 0]

rushmc

We are not talking about smoking

the numbers regarding coal fired plants as most of them operate to day is a WAG as best

People write numbers in something they call a report and people like you buy

I get that

Luckily, science does not give one shit what you think.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[rushmc 18]

which industry does matter
You would not have any points if you dropped tobacco

the is a big big difference

A direct relationship to tobacco usage can be shown

not so much with you coal death numbers

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln