"Drill, baby, drill"

[gowlerk 2,072]

brenthutch

So you put your faith in the sub-par intelect of government bureaucrats. The same guys who promalgated the notion of peak oil and catastrophic global warming. I feel sorry for you.

After all the shifting around to avoid the fact that what you were trying to say about regulations and subsidies is utter nonsense, you impune the integrity of bureaucrats rather than admit that you are in error.

Those you accuse of "sub-par" intellect are in reality far superior to you, or they could not hold such important positions. Don't waste your time feeling sorry for your superiors. Look into a mirror and weep at your own image.

You are the one who lacks the integrity and insight to examine your own errors. What makes it worse is that they are probably willful errors.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[GTAVercetti 0]

brenthutch

So you put your faith in the sub-par intelect of government bureaucrats. The same guys who promalgated the notion of peak oil and catastrophic global warming. I feel sorry for you.

gowlerk summed it up pretty well. You couldn't answer so you shifted it to my "faith" in the government.

As I have said over and over again, you have no FACTS. You have no data. The government has helped every push for energy innovation for hundreds of years. The world you live in where a company produces new forms and techniques of energy production without some sort of government assistance does not exist. It is a faery-tale land where the "invisible hand" is the only help anyone has ever used.

You basic premise: That companies will do it on their own is false. No "well, maybe. But what about this company?" No. It has never been true. You can wish for it, hope for it, you can jerk off to the idea of it, but they have ALL gotten government assistance in one form or another. Could it be done without that aid? Maybe. But we don't know because it has never been done. And so far, it has worked pretty well. If it didn't, we would just be sitting in huts somewhere without power to yell at each other from hundreds of mile away.

You want to act like we are all living in some dream world, but it is you who truly lives in a dream world. A world that has never existed. Because your concept of how we have moved forward since our country started is false. Flawed. Incorrect. Opinion.

You feel sorry for me? Super. I will try not to lose sleep over it.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[Stumpy 280]

brenthutch

sub-par intelect

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[brenthutch 416]

GTAVercetti

***Never said it did. I hope you are playing dumb.

you said regulations = subsidies
bill said those laws (that define the regs) != subsidies

You then say you did not say the first sentence.

Now who is playing dumb? Are you keeping track of what you are saying?

You can't keep up? Sorry, I'll type slower.

[brenthutch 416]

gowlerk

***So you put your faith in the sub-par intelect of government bureaucrats. The same guys who promalgated the notion of peak oil and catastrophic global warming. I feel sorry for you.

After all the shifting around to avoid the fact that what you were trying to say about regulations and subsidies is utter nonsense, you impune the integrity of bureaucrats rather than admit that you are in error.

Those you accuse of "sub-par" intellect are in reality far superior to you, or they could not hold such important positions.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v7XXVLKWd3Q

Much to learn you have young Padawan.

[gowlerk 2,072]

Quote

Much to learn you have young Padawan.

I'm not geeky enough to know who or what "Padawan" is. I assume it's a reference to a movie character. Entirely appropriate in the fictional world you seem to be embracing. You complain about the intellect of bureaucrats, and you illustrate your point with a video of a stupid politician. Do you understand the difference between politics and bureaucracy?

You make very poor, very unconvincing arguments. Not surprising as many of your positions are difficult to defend in any logical fashion. I do not feel sorry for you at all.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[kallend 1,804]

brenthutch

I'll type slower.

Good, maybe you won't make as many spelling errors.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[brenthutch 416]

gowlerk

Quote

Much to learn you have young Padawan.

I'm not geeky enough to know who or what "Padawan" is. I assume it's a reference to a movie character. Entirely appropriate in the fictional world you seem to be embracing. You complain about the intellect of bureaucrats, and you illustrate your point with a video of a stupid politician. Do you understand the difference between politics and bureaucracy?

Bureaucrats implement policies politicians make. The confusion is yours.

[gowlerk 2,072]

Quote

Bureaucrats implement policies politicians make. The confusion is yours.

Give it up. No matter how hard you keep trying to look foolish, I still don't feel sorry for you.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[brenthutch 416]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Avfm2urqdHM

Here is your bureaucrat

[gowlerk 2,072]

brenthutch

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Avfm2urqdHM

Here is your bureaucrat

That was a politician abusing the committee hearing process to berate and bully a civil servant for political reasons. What makes you thing your intellect is superior to the civil servant? That's not what I see. Maybe I do feel a little sorry for you. It's a little hard watching you twist in the wind attempting feebly to justify your words.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[brenthutch 416]

kallend

******> They aim at "Big Coal" and hit consumers and taxpayers.

And save the lives of Americans who will no longer die due to particulate pollution. Not a bad hit.

Ah yes

All those imaginary people who die

what a strong argument

And then there are these and this

If we are worried about worker safety, we should start with loggers, fishers, pilots, roofers, trash collectors, farmers, steel workers, truck drivers, electric line workers..........all of which are more dangerous than coal mining.

[gowlerk 2,072]

Quote

If we are worried about worker safety, we should start with loggers, fishers, pilots, roofers, trash collectors, farmers, steel workers, truck drivers, electric line workers..........all of which are more dangerous than coal mining.

No one thinks occupational risk alone is reason to cut back on coal production. It's a combination of factors. Coal is mostly done for now. Coal has killed many workers, especially through respiratory diseases. It damages our children by polluting the air we breath, it leaves behind toxic ash that escapes into our water. And it is a large contributor to CO2 output.

There are many reasons coal is dying out. Embrace the future, don't be a deadender.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[brenthutch 416]

Coal is not as dangerous as you think it is. We have a coal fired power plant on the campus of Penn State University, right in the middle of town, less than two miles from my son,s daycare. If it were so dangerous, I am sure Dr. Michael Mann (inventor of man made global warming) would have said something about it by now. Our daughters go to the same school.
The plant is currently being retrofit for natural gas, but that choice is being driven by economics and not health concerns.
BTW I like what works, trust me if it were cheaper to heat my home with unicorn farts, I would; when and if that happens I gladly will.

[gowlerk 2,072]

Well... I'm not sure if unicorn farts would be considered low tech or high tech. But it would be great if they could be made to power an O-470, as well as a PT-6.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[brenthutch 416]

On that we can both agree

[billvon 2,687]

>Coal is not as dangerous as you think it is. We have a coal fired power plant on the
>campus of Penn State University, right in the middle of town, less than two miles from
>my son,s daycare.

Let's see what effect similar plants elsewhere have:

From a study from the Harvard School of Public Health:

=======
To estimate the health impacts of emissions and benefits of emission reductions from
power plants that had been “grandfathered” under the Clean Air Act, we developed a damage model and applied it to two power plants in Massachusetts. Salem Harbor is an 805 megawatt power plant in Salem, Massachusetts, and Brayton Point is a 1611 megawatt power plant in Somerset, Massachusetts. Both power plants are largely coal-fired, with approximately one million short tons of coal burned at Salem and three million short tons of coal burned at Brayton each year.

. . .

Health effects include:

- 53 premature deaths per year from Salem Harbor and 106 premature deaths per
year from Brayton Point
- 570 emergency room visits per year from Salem Harbor and 1,140 emergency
room visits per year from Brayton Point
- 14,400 asthma attacks per year from Salem Harbor and 28,900 asthma attacks per
year from Brayton Point
- 99,000 daily incidents of upper respiratory symptoms from Salem Harbor and
199,000 daily incidents of upper respiratory symptoms from Brayton Point

. . .

- Per capita health risks were greatest near the power plants and decreased with
distance from the source. However, only 20% of total impacts occurred within 30
miles of the plants (15% for Brayton Point and 32% for Salem Harbor), since
more than 90% of affected individuals live beyond 30 miles of the plants.
- Secondary sulfate particles were responsible for a majority of the estimated health
effects, associated with a relatively high SO2 emission rate in comparison with
other pollutants.
=================

>If it were so dangerous, I am sure Dr. Michael Mann (inventor of
>man made global warming) would have said something about it by now.

It's time to play "count the mistakes in the Brenthutch post" -

1) Mann did not "invent" AGW; Arrhenius first explained it over 100 years ago.

2) Mann has not done any medical/epidemiological studies over deaths from particulate pollution, so there is no reason he'd have anything to say about a single power plant near where your son goes to daycare.

3) It is not "so dangerous." It simply increases the odds that people living nearby will die or be sickened.

>The plant is currently being retrofit for natural gas, but that choice is being driven
>by economics and not health concerns.

From Penn State's website:
=============
The University is now upgrading and improving the efficiency of its steam system. After analyzing a range of alternatives, Penn State plans to convert the WCSP’s coal-fired systems to burn natural gas.

What are the advantages of using natural gas instead of coal?

Environment—Using natural gas reduces emissions by nearly 50% over coal, including the production of greenhouse gases, which contain dangerous levels of carbon dioxide and nitrous oxide (see the benefits of switching to natural gas below)
Regulations—The University is ensuring compliance with federal clean-air regulations
Cost—Both the mechanical upgrades and projected fuel costs for natural gas are lower in cost than continuing to burn coal
Future Enhancements—Switching now will allow for future, higher-efficiency co-generation—which means even cleaner air in the community.
Safety—Switching to natural gas will eliminate the need for coal deliveries and heavy truck traffic. Currently, more than 15 to 21 coal trucks a day travel our streets.
=============
And from the Penn State News:

Penn State reaches milestone in conversion to cleaner energy
August 22, 2014

UNIVERSITY PARK, Pa. -- Penn State continues its pursuit of greater sustainability with the conclusion of construction on the installation of 13,645 feet (2.6 miles) of pipe to increase natural gas service to the University’s West Campus Steam Plant. Conversion from its historic use of coal to natural gas will reduce the plant’s total emissions by nearly 50 percent and help meet the University’s ambitious goal of a 35 percent overall reduction in greenhouse gas emissions by 2020 (over a 2005 baseline).
===================

So we will call that mistake 4).

So four mistakes in one post; not a record by any means, but pretty impressive.

[brenthutch 416]

Now it is time to play "BillV is far to smart to believe any of the nonsense he just posted."

1. He equated older power plants which had to be " grandfathered" in under the clean air act, to the state of the art power plant in my town. I believe he called them "similar" when nothing could be further from the truth.

2. Dr Mann did invent the "hockey stick" graph, ( featured in the blockbuster hit The Inconvenient Truth) which brought AGW to public prominence. That is why the pantie bunching Is happening now and not a hundred years ago.

3. If health, safety and sustiaibilty were concerns, Penn State would have switched to NG long before economics compelled them to do so.

[billvon 2,687]

>1. He equated older power plants that had to be " grandfathered" in under the clean air
>act, to a state of the art power plant in my town.

Nope, I didn't equate them. They are different power levels, different locations and different designs. You said "coal is not as dangerous as you think it is" -I gave one simple example (not equality) that demonstrated how dangerous it is.

And in any case the older power plant in your town IS being shut down so it can be converted to a cleaner fuel in order to meet the university's environmental goals. NEXT!

>2. Dr Mann did invent the "hockey stick" graph, ( featured in the blockbuster hit The
>Inconvenient Truth) which brought AGW to prominence.

Wrong again. He was merely one publisher of that data. Jones and Bradley published their paper "Little Ice Age summer temperature variations; their nature and relevance to recent global warming trends" in 1993; in that paper, they pointed out the rapid rise in temperature over the past 50 years. Pollack, Huang and Shen published a paper entitled "Climate Change Record in Subsurface Temperatures: A Global Perspective" a year before Mann published his data and again highlighted the rapid increase in temperature. The data was already out there before Mann's paper.

So why didn't you know about all that other data? Probably because you only follow right wing news sources, which also ignored it until Gore publicized it. Then they had a cow because Gore.

And in any case, none of that has anything to do with the health risks of coal power plant particulate emissions. Nothing at all. NEXT!

>3. If health and sustiaibilty were concerns, PennState would have switched to NG long
>before economics compelled them to do so.

They did switch, and the reason they gave on their website (which overrides your imagination) was that they want to meet their own goal of a 35 percent overall reduction in greenhouse gas emissions by 2020. NEXT!

No next point? OK, back to your regularly scheduled denial.

[normiss 719]

Needs editing.
Again.

[brenthutch 416]

billvon

>1. He equated older power plants that had to be " grandfathered" in.

Nope, I didn't equate them. They are different power levels, different locations and different designs. .

Bill said
> Let's see what effect similar plants elsewhere have:

sim·i·lar
adjective
1.
resembling without being identical.
"a soft cheese similar to Brie"
synonyms: alike, (much) the same, indistinguishable, almost identical, homogeneous, homologous;

[kallend 1,804]

normiss

Needs editing.
Again.

It's because his fingers type faster than his brain works.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[brenthutch 416]

Sort of the other way around

[normiss 719]

Given the contents of your posts in this thread?
Unpossible.

[turtlespeed 212]

normiss

Given the contents of your posts in this thread?
Unpossible.

Inconceivable!

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun