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skydiverek

Scary near miss...! VIDEO

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Good example of why:

1) Jumping through clouds is often a bad idea. The low guy may have entered the cloud, lost sight of the formation and just given up.

2) It's a good idea to have a go-low plan (one that includes, for example, tracking.)

3) It's a good idea to clear your airspace before deploying.

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Holy shit. Newbie there needs some remedial training for sure.

Quote


2) It's a good idea to have a go-low plan (one that includes, for example, tracking.)



Even without a go-low plan, a basic track at breakoff altitude is absolutely standard. For him to be in the middle of the formation while deploying is a huge fuck up.

I didn't even see a wave off.

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Crispy.

Umm, they ALL need remedial training. No one recognized the problem. Not the low jumper. Not the three belly flyers. Not the cameraman. EVERYONE needs a little additional education after this incident.



What would you have the group do other than keep an eye on the low man?

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Crispy.

Umm, they ALL need remedial training. No one recognized the problem. Not the low jumper. Not the three belly flyers. Not the cameraman. EVERYONE needs a little additional education after this incident.



I disagree. When someone goes low, the responsibilities of the entire group become divided.

The responsibility of the low jumper is to try - all the way to breakoff if necessary - to get back up, while monitoring the position of the group to avoid getting directly under them (which in this case he/she obviously did as evidenced by the trajectory of the opening parachute). The low jumper should NOT track away until the designated breakoff altitude. Tracking away early will cause the jumper to become visually lost to the other jumpers who may unwittingly track toward that jumper. When the low jumper reaches deployment altitude he/she will deploy while the tracking jumpers are above and still tracking. That is a recipe for disaster.

The responsibility of the jumpers still in the formation is to focus on their jobs and trust (yep, I said it) the low jumper to do the right thing. Yes, it's good if they see the low jumper and monitor his/her position, but their responsibility is to focus on keeping with the plan first and foremost. The only thing worse than having a jumper go low is having a jumper go low and for the rest of the skydive to turn into a shit show.

Having a jumper go low should not be a problem and isn't when everyone does their job.

The cause of this close call was the failure of the low jumper to track away at the designated altitude, plain and simple.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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Move! Get the fuck away from him! I've been over people and it's scary as shit. I moved away immediately. It doesn't take but a second for them to change fall rates or deploy a canopy. It I guess you have to recognize the situation first.

Edited to add: And get down to his level!

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Crispy.

Move! Get the fuck away from him! I've been over people and it's scary as shit. I moved away immediately. It doesn't take but a second for them to change fall rates or deploy a canopy. It I guess you have to recognize the situation first.

Edited to add: And get down to his level!



Chuck's already summed it up - When everybody starts moving and making stuff up it tends to make things worse, not better.

Consider this scenario - your guy goes low and you need to (in your words) 'get the fuck away from him!' So you turn and track... but he's lost sight of the formation and decides to track early, coincidentally in the same direction as you.

You're now focused on getting away from this guy who is still beneath you and you now have no idea where your teammates are, what they're doing or where you are in relation to the rest of the groups on jumprun.

It's a bad idea, as is trying to get everyone to drop down to him.


If you go low, stay to one side and keep an eye on the formation as long as possible.

Try to get back up to them.

Track at the proper altitude.

Wave off and deploy.


Everyone else just follows the plan and watches for the low man if at all possible.

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Chuck is right. When people make stuff up, it's a problem. Plan your jump and jump your plan. If their plan was to ignore a low jumper, they did an excellent job.

I would bet, however, that they did not discuss what to do if someone lost contact with the group. They should have moved the fuck away from him by sliding in any direction. He obviously did not recognize that he was below them because he did not move. And I never said that they should turn and track prematurely. That is just dumb and will only cause additional problems. If they track and he tracks under them, they will have to track further and dimply hope they don't collide with another group. Dumb.

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Crispy.

They should have moved the fuck away from him by sliding in any direction.



Let's think about that for a second... If you fall low on a 40-way, do you expect the other 39 jumpers to slide out of the way? What if 10 people go low? Does it become a game of dodgeball above? :S

It's the responsibility of the jumper going low to act accordingly and avoid compromising the safety of those above. Always.

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"It's the responsibility of the jumper going low to act accordingly and avoid compromising the safety of those above,."

It's also the responsibility of drivers to stay in their lanes. If you see a car driving over the line, do you just hold your position and hope the satisfy their responsibility to avoid compromising your safety?

This wasn't a 40-way. This was a 4-way with clearly inexperienced jumpers.

You guys jump however you'd like, but when I see a dangerous situation unfolding and the person who has the responsibility to fix it isn't, I'm going to move out of the way.

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Seriously? The lower jumper doesn't track? There was clearly one inexperienced jumper. The other three...not necessarily. Even if you were keeping an eye on him, as you can see, shit happens real fast when he decides to pull in place.

__________________________________________

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ixlr82

The lower jumper doesn't track? There was clearly one inexperienced jumper. The other three...not necessarily.


"Hey guys, what do I do if I don't see you anymore"?
This is a regular question which shows that brain is present (good).

If he didn't ask that OR nobody told him what's what, then nothing really special happened.
He probably thought that tracking is risky and should deploy higher... right away (hence no wave off)

Lack of asking or lack of telling - equally bad
What goes around, comes later.

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format


He probably thought that tracking is risky and should deploy higher... right away (hence no wave off)



I can't get to that to make sense in my head. Why would he ever have been taught that?


It's remotely possible that as an inexperienced jumper the plan was for him to pull in place higher than the rest of the team while they tracked away and he just stuck with the plan when he lost sight of them - 4,500? Pull!

If so, that's where BillVon's 'go low' plan comes into effect.

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After watching this, a group I was with grew into what was starting to look like a zoo dive, with at least one pretty new face. Someone was telling him to just pull in place, and I flashed back to that opening...

I changed than plan and told him to track away just like the rest of us, and advised the whole group just to keep an eye on him in case his track was off heading or unstable. I think that was a much better plan, and it worked out fine!

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CrashProne

After watching this, a group I was with grew into what was starting to look like a zoo dive, with at least one pretty new face. Someone was telling him to just pull in place, and I flashed back to that opening...

I changed than plan and told him to track away just like the rest of us, and advised the whole group just to keep an eye on him in case his track was off heading or unstable. I think that was a much better plan, and it worked out fine!



I agree with this entirely. When you're taking a new jumper with you there's no reason to coddle them so much, they just got done with each coach jump by tracking away, keep that going. The experienced jumpers should be able to adjust and track a safe distance for their to be no issues. If it's larger jump and you want them the fuck out of the picture, sure, get them to pull in place.

Everyone is pointing at the low jumper as the issue in this jump but it's really the other three/four who should have made some better calls on that jump.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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The jump was a scrambles competition. 1 experienced jumper (1000's jumps) and 3 less experienced. Approx 30, 60 and 100 jumps each. The flyer that went low was actually the one with about 100 jumps. It being a scrambles, it would have been well briefed and prepped by the experienced flyer.

I wasn't there but know the experienced jumper. That's all I know - definitely a few lessons to be learnt here and I believe this video should be shown around so people know the importance of tracking and having a good plan for people going low / in cloud / losing sight of the formation.

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DJL

If it's larger jump and you want them the fuck out of the picture, sure, get them to pull in place.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher



or tell them they don't have the skill to be on the jump. break it down into smaller groups if you feel that they must be included somehow

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DeeBeeGee

***If it's larger jump and you want them the fuck out of the picture, sure, get them to pull in place.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher



or tell them they don't have the skill to be on the jump. break it down into smaller groups if you feel that they must be included somehow

Someone messaged me a similar thing and I have to say there are exceptions to the rule. I wouldn't just put a new jumper on something big with a bunch of people and say it's OK, as I said above, that's the wrong thing to do. I've seen and been on 8-ways where the remainder of the group is made up of instructors and led by someone with 18,000 jumps. Most have that new jumper tracking, some pulling in place.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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DJL

******If it's larger jump and you want them the fuck out of the picture, sure, get them to pull in place.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher



or tell them they don't have the skill to be on the jump. break it down into smaller groups if you feel that they must be included somehow

Someone messaged me a similar thing and I have to say there are exceptions to the rule. I wouldn't just put a new jumper on something big with a bunch of people and say it's OK, as I said above, that's the wrong thing to do. I've seen and been on 8-ways where the remainder of the group is made up of instructors and led by someone with 18,000 jumps. Most have that new jumper tracking, some pulling in place.

I routinely organize SCR's and similar size jumps for newly licensed jumpers, but there are several important safety considerations that I follow.

First I NEVER have the newbie pull in place. Planning a pull in place risks a collision in the event that someone is not in the formation when the newbie deploys (of course no one should be steep enough to risk that, but we know it happens). In fact, it's entirely possible to have a scenario like the one in the video on this thread by having a jumper pull in place. The newbie goes low and since the plan was for him/her to pull in place (often higher than anyone else), that's exactly what they will do - potentially right under the formation or under someone who is tracking away. If a jumper can't be trusted to track away properly they should not be on the jump.

Second - the newbie must be able to track straight and clear their air properly. It's not so important that they have a strong track, but it must be straight and remain on the correct heading. If the track is weak, the other jumpers will simply out track them, but a crooked or looping track could be a disaster.

It's important that everyone else on the load be competent. Having multiple people of questionable skill is a shit show waiting to happen. Way too many uncontrollable variables to deal with.

The most important thing is to clearly communicate the plan and for everyone to stick to it.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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