Donald Trump Versus Hillary Clinton

[Phil1111 910]

ryoder

***“Claiming a person can’t do their job because of their race is sort of like the textbook definition of a racist comment”; Paul Ryan, Speaker of the US House of Representatives, June 7, 2016

Ryan is bright enough to see Trump for what he is, but too gutless to do what is best for the country, instead of what is best for the party.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

NAILED IT.

[quade 3]

ryoder

***“Claiming a person can’t do their job because of their race is sort of like the textbook definition of a racist comment”; Paul Ryan, Speaker of the US House of Representatives, June 7, 2016

Ryan is bright enough to see Trump for what he is, but too gutless to do what is best for the country, instead of what is best for the party.

Perhaps Ryan is thinking about the future; 2020.

Here's my logic. He knows Trump is horrible for both his Party and the country as a whole. He also knows that at this moment Trump has a bit of a following and Ryan can't afford to piss them off too much. As long as Ryan can sort of straddle the fence on this, he can claim he was against whatever goes down and still looks like he was the most reasonable person in the Republican Party in 2016.

So if Hillary wins (let's assume she does), then he can say "I told Trump wasn't any good for us" to the party, be the savior of the party by pulling Hillary down and running in 2020 pretty much unopposed by any of the people who came right out and supported Trump.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

in some contexts, race is not irrelevant, and, in common combination with a lack of understanding of a relevant culture, can impact one's ability to do their job correctly. In other words, all else is not equal.

this kind of rationalization seems to be lots of fancy words that pretty much come down to: it's ok to be racist whenever I think it's ok. and it's not whenever I think it's not ok.

Understanding "culture" isn't race based, it's training and experience based and needs to be underpinned by actions. If one makes an assumption that culture is solely skin color, then, sorry, you are just using "culture" as a buzz work for pigment.

The difference is this:

"we don't like this judge because in the past he has demonstrated the following behavior" (good argument, justifiable)
vs
"we don't like this judge because he is (race) and therefore can't be objective" (racist)

jcd11235

In the matter of the Trump U case, race is not a factor in the case, and is an irrelevant factor in the judge.

AGREE
I don't see any disagreement except for the sycophants.

If the judge has any history of actual racial bias, then that evidence should have been put forth and request for change of venue made. Anything coming out after the fact is in question unless it's iron clad. Nothing compelling is out - semantics games about the name of an association he belongs to is pure apologetics. Painfully weak.

Instead, he, off the cuff, makes a blanket statement that assumes the judge is biased without supporting evidence is absolutely wrong. He really screwed up and deserves the name calling and consequences.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jcd11235 0]

rehmwa

this kind of rationalization seems to be lots of fancy words that pretty much come down to: it's ok to be racist whenever I think it's ok. and it's not whenever I think it's not ok.

Your obliviousness to what is actually said is unsurpassed on this forum.

rehmwa

Understanding "culture" isn't race based, it's training and experience based and needs to be underpinned by actions.

Right. There's never any correlation at all.

***If one makes an assumption that culture is solely skin color, then, sorry, you are just using "culture" as a buzz work for pigment.

Again, nice straw man.

Racial proportions are not constant across all cultures in the US. Recognizing one's culture influences their world view is not racism (except maybe to you, with your need to vent your pseudo-outrage that most people are able to perceive the world in more shades of grey than you seem able to recognize).

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[rehmwa 2]

jcd11235

Right. There's never any correlation at all.

it's just plain laziness - either people are individuals and their history and actions speak for themselves, or you just make assumptions and live on stereotypes

his actions and content of character will demonstrate your so called 'correlation' or not - if not, then you merely insulted the person's professionalism based on some race based stereotype - just like Trump

your choice - profiling ('hey, they're all the same, right?')
my choice - evidence

clearly you think this is some kind of outrage instead of treating people fairly, your call

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,396]

You seem to be arguing something very different now.

"Racial proportions are not constant across all cultures in the US." - Definitely true.

"Recognizing one's culture influences their world view is not racism" - Also true. Recognize whatever influences on yourself that you want; that's not necessarily racism.

"in some contexts, race is not irrelevant, and, in common combination with a lack of understanding of a relevant culture, can impact one's ability to do their job correctly." - Very true. But this is not because a black/white/hispanic judge has an inherent problem being fair - it is because bigots (and some bigots are judges) have problems being fair. The RACE is not the determining factor, the bigotry is.

Remember, you took issue with this statement:

"If one 'claims' to be an individualist, and it bothers you when special interest groups make racist claims that a white male can't be unbiased as a judge, cop, or investigator" - then you are also racist, just as you would be racist if you claim that a Mexican can't be unbiased as a judge.

That is also true. If you decide a judge cannot be unbiased because of his race - whether that judge is white, black, hispanic, Arab, whatever - then you're exhibiting racism. And if that decision changes based on the judge's race (i.e. there are some "good" races that can be unbiased and some "bad" races that can't be) then that is hypocritical; you are claiming in one case that race is a determinant in fairness, and in the other case, claiming it is not.

[jcd11235 0]

rehmwa

your choice - profiling ('hey, they're all the same, right?')

That's not remotely close to my position.

I'm a white guy who grew up in an area that was nearly exclusively white. While I'm not racist, I don't believe for a second that I have any idea what it's like to be a black man in America. For any job where empathy for such life experience is a prerequisite, I'm not qualified, and it would be an injustice to allow me to fill such a position.

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[jcd11235 0]

billvon

Remember, you took issue with this statement:

"If one 'claims' to be an individualist, and it bothers you when special interest groups make racist claims that a white male can't be unbiased as a judge, cop, or investigator" - then you are also racist, just as you would be racist if you claim that a Mexican can't be unbiased as a judge.

Re-read my post. I took issue with:

"either way, if you aren't bothered by both scenarios, you are a hypocrit"

primarily because the scenarios (at least in the version of the post to which I applied) were not necessarily equivalent.

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[billvon 2,396]

Quote

For any job where empathy for such life experience is a prerequisite, I'm not qualified, and it would be an injustice to allow me to fill such a position.

You can decide you are not qualified; no one is better than you to make that call.

It does NOT mean that no white person can be qualified.

Quote

"either way, if you aren't bothered by both scenarios, you are a hypocrite"
primarily because the scenarios (at least in the version of the post to which I applied) were not necessarily equivalent.

And he didn't claim they were. He claimed they were similar - and they are. If one bothers you and one does not, based purely on the race of the person involved, then that's a hypocritical position.

[jcd11235 0]

billvon

Quote

For any job where empathy for such life experience is a prerequisite, I'm not qualified, and it would be an injustice to allow me to fill such a position.

You can decide you are not qualified; no one is better than you to make that call.

It does NOT mean that no white person can be qualified.

Not in absolute terms, no. However, one would be hard pressed to find a significant number of whites who have any understanding of what it's like to be a black man in America. The correlation is very strong, even if the R-squared value would be slightly less than 1.

billvon

He claimed they were similar - and they are.

Possibly in some cases. In others, not at all.

billvon

If one bothers you and one does not, based purely on the race of the person involved, then that's a hypocritical position.

Nope, not even close.

If we restrict the context to the plaintiffs of the case claiming a white judge would be biased, then I'd agree. Without such a restriction, you're using far too broad a brush, ignoring too many contributing factors.

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[billvon 2,396]

>However, one would be hard pressed to find a significant number of whites who have
>any understanding of what it's like to be a black man in America.

If you changed that to say "who have a very good understanding of what it's like to be a black man in America" you might be right. It would be similarly hard to find a non-white man who understood to the same degree what it's like to be a white man in America.

[quade 3]

billvon

>However, one would be hard pressed to find a significant number of whites who have
>any understanding of what it's like to be a black man in America.

If you changed that to say "who have a very good understanding of what it's like to be a black man in America" you might be right. It would be similarly hard to find a non-white man who understood to the same degree what it's like to be a white man in America.

The difference being, for most non-whites, experiencing what it's like to be white in America would probably be a dream, and for most whites experiencing what it's like to be non-white would probably be a nightmare.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jcd11235 0]

billvon

If you changed that to say "who have a very good understanding of what it's like to be a black man in America" you might be right.

Fair enough. That's what I meant, though I failed to write it that way. I'll own that.

billvon

It would be similarly hard to find a non-white man who understood to the same degree what it's like to be a white man in America.

Agreed.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Interesting arguments about how racist Trump is (or isn't).

However, his record as a con-man is pretty well established.

His history with casinos in Atlantic City shows that pretty well.

Take out huge loans, skim a bunch off the top, dump personal debt onto the portfolio and then declare bankruptcy.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jakee 1,254]

And who takes the brunt of the bankruptcies? Hard working people. Small family businesses. The guys who are last in the line of creditors, people who've spent thousands delivering the product they were contracted for and wont see a penny in return.

The funny thing is I'm sure a lot of people who support Trump support 3 strike laws that lock up petty shoplifters for life because of the immense harm that stealing a pizza slice does to a shop owner - yet Trump welching on debts large enough to put his victims out of business just shows what a smart, great, fantastic, just the best, amazing guy he is.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[turtlespeed 212]

jakee

And who takes the brunt of the bankruptcies? Hard working people. Small family businesses. The guys who are last in the line of creditors, people who've spent thousands delivering the product they were contracted for and wont see a penny in return.

The funny thing is I'm sure a lot of people who support Trump support 3 strike laws that lock up petty shoplifters for life because of the immense harm that stealing a pizza slice does to a shop owner - yet Trump welching on debts large enough to put his victims out of business just shows what a smart, great, fantastic, just the best, amazing guy he is.

How are you sure of that?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[jakee 1,254]

Basic observational skills.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[winsor 186]

jakee

And who takes the brunt of the bankruptcies? Hard working people. Small family businesses. The guys who are last in the line of creditors, people who've spent thousands delivering the product they were contracted for and wont see a penny in return.

The funny thing is I'm sure a lot of people who support Trump support 3 strike laws that lock up petty shoplifters for life because of the immense harm that stealing a pizza slice does to a shop owner - yet Trump welching on debts large enough to put his victims out of business just shows what a smart, great, fantastic, just the best, amazing guy he is.

"In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread."

Anatole France

A different issue, but Bernie Madoff burned the well heeled as well as pensioners.

[turtlespeed 212]

jakee

Basic observational skills.

What evidence do you have that the ingrates that support trump support three strikes?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[jakee 1,254]

turtlespeed

***Basic observational skills.

What evidence do you have that the ingrates that support trump support three strikes?

A) Because it's a Republican policy, and Trump supporters are mostly Republican leaning.

B) Trump offers simple, soundbite policies, Trump supporters like simple soundbite policies and '3 strikes' is a simple, sounbite policy.

It's a pretty basic convergence. Are you saying there aren't many '3 strikes' supporters among Trump voters? If so, why do you think that?

BTW, ingrates?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[turtlespeed 212]

jakee

******Basic observational skills.

What evidence do you have that the ingrates that support trump support three strikes?

A) Because it's a Republican policy, and Trump supporters are mostly Republican leaning.

B) Trump offers simple, soundbite policies, Trump supporters like simple soundbite policies and '3 strikes' is a simple, sounbite policy.

It's a pretty basic convergence. Are you saying there aren't many '3 strikes' supporters among Trump voters? If so, why do you think that?

BTW, ingrates?

I have no opinion either way - I was just curious how you were "sure".

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[normiss 622]

It would appear to me that your choice of words say otherwise.

[turtlespeed 212]

normiss

It would appear to me that your choice of words say otherwise.

That is your own delusion.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

I have no opinion either way - I was just curious how you were "sure".

It's the same as being sure that lots of Trump supporters approve of high military spending and lots of Hillary supporters approve of government health care.

You understand that there are trends in how people's political views align, right? Support or opposition on different topics isn't aways completely random.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[normiss 622]

I'm not delusional about the meaning and choices of words.