Tim Cook vs the FBI

[Coreeece 2]

quade

***...and if you're so concerned with hypothetical chineese threats, then fine - that's your prerogative - but just remember that people have been berated and deemed xenophobic bigots for expressing their concern about legitimate Islamic extremist threats that actually exist.

And what makes you think ISIS isn't also attempting to hack into US infrastructure?

http://www.businessinsider.com/isis-and-hacking-us-power-grid-2015-10?op=1

I mean, seriously, it's almost like you have no clue whatsoever what you're talking about.

Sez the guy who posts articles that directly contradict his own wild-eyed musings. . .

Quade:
"The right cascade of failures inserted into the electrical grid could end up shutting down power for the entire country."

From Your Article:
"The likeliest outcome of a cyberattack against US infrastructure, Pollet contends, is "localized disruptions in service — not a widespread outage."

"It would be extremely difficult for hackers, without an almost superhuman effort, to cause a power outage that stretched across the country"

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[quade 3]

Coreeece

"It would be extremely difficult for hackers, without an almost superhuman effort, to cause a power outage that stretched across the country"

One reporter's ignorance of such things doesn't invalidate the argument.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SkyDekker 1,121]

Quote

"The likeliest outcome of a cyberattack against US infrastructure, Pollet contends, is "localized disruptions in service — not a widespread outage.

Right. not country wide. SO you hit LA, DC, Chicago, New York, Atlanta, Miami and anything related to water infrastructure.

That "localized" outage would cause billions if not trillions. Not like a simple electrical problem hasn't led to massive outages before.

On the phone issue. It will be interesting to read the outrage from people when 2 years from now this technology is being used to "read" every person's smart phone...you know just to make sure you are all safe.

[Coreeece 2]

quade

***"It would be extremely difficult for hackers, without an almost superhuman effort, to cause a power outage that stretched across the country"

One reporter's ignorance of such things doesn't invalidate the argument.

pffft, talk about ignorance - He's more than just a reporter, he's "the founder of Red Tiger Security and a 17-year veteran of the critical infrastructure industry. As an ‘ethical hacker,’ he consults for some of the world’s largest energy companies, as well as electric utilities, chemical plants, water treatment plants, etc. to help them better defend against cyber attacks. He’s presented workshops on SCADA security to the FBI, DHS and Utility Telecom Council."

How about posting articles that actually support your argument?

Or do you just know more than the experts?

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Coreeece 2]

SkyDekker

On the phone issue. It will be interesting to read the outrage from people when 2 years from now this technology is being used to "read" every person's smart phone...you know just to make sure you are all safe.

We're gonna build a firewall and make america safe again!

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[normiss 622]

With CALEA connections of course.

[Coreeece 2]

SkyDekker

Right. not country wide. SO you hit LA, DC, Chicago, New York, Atlanta, Miami and anything related to water infrastructure.

Though I'm skeptical of hitting all those cities at once, I am familiar with the threat along with the possibility of an EMP attack. That's why in the past I've stressed the importance of guns and having the ability to provide for yourself and live off the land. But when Ron and I talk about that stuff, we're just dismissed as a bunch of paranoid christian prepper nutcases by the same people putting their hope in Apple to protect them. . .

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[SkyDekker 1,121]

Coreeece

***
Right. not country wide. SO you hit LA, DC, Chicago, New York, Atlanta, Miami and anything related to water infrastructure.

Though I'm skeptical of hitting all those cities at once, I am familiar with the threat along with the possibility of an EMP attack. That's why in the past I've stressed the importance of guns and having the ability to provide for yourself and live off the land. But when Ron and I talk about that stuff, we're just dismissed as a bunch of paranoid christian prepper nutcases by the same people putting their hope in Apple to protect them. . .

Because engineering a power outage and a complete breakdown of society are two separate issues.

Personally I see nothing wrong with being prepared, and more power to you. However I do make fun of people who think they need to prepare because the country is being led by a socialist Muslim Kenyan.

[Coreeece 2]

SkyDekker

******
Right. not country wide. SO you hit LA, DC, Chicago, New York, Atlanta, Miami and anything related to water infrastructure.

Though I'm skeptical of hitting all those cities at once, I am familiar with the threat along with the possibility of an EMP attack. That's why in the past I've stressed the importance of guns and having the ability to provide for yourself and live off the land. But when Ron and I talk about that stuff, we're just dismissed as a bunch of paranoid christian prepper nutcases by the same people putting their hope in Apple to protect them. . .

Because engineering a power outage and a complete breakdown of society are two separate issues.

Oh, now it's just a "power outage." Just a little while ago it was a massive attack against all the big cities across the country that could "cost trillions" - where one "compromised phone could lead to untold deaths"

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[normiss 622]

Care to begin a guess at what such massive outages cost business in major cities?

[ryoder 1,381]

normiss

One of the articles I was reading earlier mentioned the State of New York has about 100 iPhones they desire access to.

To that point, the New York City police commissioner, William J. Bratton, and the Manhattan district attorney, Cyrus R. Vance Jr., criticized Apple after it refused to comply with the court order and said that they currently possessed 175 iPhones that they could not unlock.

Charlie Rose recently interviewed Mr. Vance and asked if he would want access to all phones that were part of a criminal proceeding should the government prevail in the San Bernardino case.

Mr. Vance responded: “Absolutely right.”

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/23/technology/apple-unlock-iphone-san-bernardino.html

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Coreeece 2]

No - I wasn't contesting the cost. I was simply pointing out how the goal posts seemed to have mysteriously Backpedaled.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[SkyDekker 1,121]

Coreeece

No - I wasn't contesting the cost. I was simply pointing out how the goal posts seemed to have mysteriously Backpedaled.

What a load of bullshit. A "massive attack" on cities electrical systems would result in a "power outage".

I was indicating that this massive attack on cities leading to power outages is not the same as a complete breakdown in society which preppers seem to concern themselves with.

You were the one trying to equate the two as being similar to make your argument work. Yet I am the one "moving the goalposts".

Like I said, what a load of bullshit.

[Coreeece 2]

SkyDekker

***No - I wasn't contesting the cost. I was simply pointing out how the goal posts seemed to have mysteriously Backpedaled.

What a load of bullshit. A "massive attack" on cities electrical systems would result in a "power outage".

I was indicating that this massive attack on cities leading to power outages is not the same as a complete breakdown in society which preppers seem to concern themselves with.

You were the one trying to equate the two as being similar to make your argument work. Yet I am the one "moving the goalposts".

Like I said, what a load of bullshit.

We were talking about a cyber attack that killed the power to every major city across the country including Washington D.C for who knows how long - that subsequently lead to "untold deaths" and cost "trillions" of dollars due to a single compromised iphone.

Now maybe you don't see that as a breakdown of society - whatever, who cares? Besides you don't need to believe in a "complete breakdown" to be a prepper prepared to live off the land and provide for yourself when the time comes - neither do you need to believe that the country is being lead by a "socialist Muslim Kenyan"

What a load of bullshit. . .

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[SkyDekker 1,121]

Right, the prepper angle was what moved the goal posts. Thanks for realizing that.

[normiss 622]

CP kicks in when we least suspect it.

[Rick 67]

I got no dog in this fight but I do believe post #101 is what started the "end of the world as we know it" argument

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[SkyDekker 1,121]

I don't. Coreece asked for a scenario of a "disaster" then didn't like the answer.

He then moved the goal post to preppers.

He then complained about the goal posts getting moved.

[Coreeece 2]

Actually, what happened was that when you started to recognize your own hypocrisy and how close your paranoia on the issue started to resemble that of a christian prepper, you started to backpedal.

Your massive cyber attack of "untold deaths" that knocked out every big city's water/power supply, costing trillions of dollars because of one single compromised iphone, all of a sudden becomes a mere "power outage" that couldn't possibly resemble something that a prepper would actually prepare for.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[SkyDekker 1,121]

I have lived through two pretty massive power outages in large metropolitan areas. None of them lead to the break down of society, even though they cost billions and lasted a few days.

So in my opinion a power outage of that scale and a breakdown of society are not the same.

If you go back you will see that you are combining Quade's comments and mine into one story and arguing against that as if it was one opinion by one person.

[Coreeece 2]

SkyDekker

I have lived through two pretty massive power outages in large metropolitan areas. None of them lead to the break down of society, even though they cost billions and lasted a few days.

I'm assuming we were both in the midst of the northeast blackout of 2003. It's was pretty chaotic in downtown Detroit - and tho that was nothing compared to what we were actually talking about, I learned a valuable lesson that day - to never be left that vulnerable again.

I talked about this awhile back in this thread:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4722620;search_string=northeast%20blackout;#4722620

This is the same thread where you basically dismissed Ron as paranoid when expressing his concern about the vulnerabilities of our border given the reality of recent attacks - yet here you are propagating a hypothetical cyber attack that even quade doesn't believe is actually going to happen even if the backdoor is mandated.

SkyDekker

So in my opinion a power outage of that scale and a breakdown of society are not the same.

If you're going to be honest, then you have to admit that we weren't talking about a mere power outage nor a breakdown of society. We were talking about something more or less in the middle of that.

It pretty much comes back to what Rehmwa said:
"people are people and they have the exact same fears and concerns - yet they are berated or cheered based solely on stupid social/political alignments"

I'll admit that I'm guilty of that at times as well.

Ulitmately the point here is that in court, Apple shouldn't focus on the idea that they're trying to protect people from some hypothetical cyber attack, when the feds are already arguing that they're trying to protect the people from an imminent threat that actually exists right now - the effects of which we have already experienced.

Apple's angle should be strictly about limiting government intrusion into their business as well as the private lives of their customers.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[gowlerk 1,909]

Quote

Apple's angle should be strictly about limiting government intrusion into their business as well as the private lives of their customers.

This is absolutely correct in my mind. I believe they will lose, but it is the only rational argument they have.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi Coreece,

Quote

Apple's angle should be strictly about limiting government intrusion into their business as well as the private lives of their customers.

Since search warrants & wiretaps already allow this, I doubt that Apple can prevail in court.

Jerry Baumchen

[Bolas 5]

Have a question about the other phones they want access to. Are all those people dead as well? If not, should they be forced to provide the password? Of course, nothing is stopping them from just providing the wrong password enough times to wipe it.

Wondering if there's a legal precedent, possibly non technology in access to a secured area with "self destruct" if breached.

Example: If a safe company has a safe that when a breach was attempted would destroy its contents, would they also be forced to create a law-enforcement override?

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[normiss 622]

If you've got nothing to hide ......