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quade

Tim Cook vs the FBI

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JerryBaumchen

Hi Half,

Quote

So if the FBI got a court order to make McDonalds build a fighter jet they would just have to figure it out?



Sort of 'Yup.'

I spent 30 yrs working in US gov't. contracting.

Now, I seriously doubt that Uncle Sam would order MacDonalds to make a fighter jet. However, let us say that you make bras for women. In a national emergency ( admittedly a rare situation ) you might be required to build parachutes. Why? Because it is a national emergency.

Also, because you have the technology ( could be argued ) and the equipment ( the feds may actually buy you a harness machine ) and you might have the capacity. You could be req'd to actually employ more people so that you could finish the parachutes on time.

Just little known facts regarding gov't. contractors.

Jerry Baumchen

PS) I hold numerous TSO's and have received more than one letter from the gov't. asking about my capacity to build parachutes in a national emergency.



Hey Jerry,

Thanks for the insight- very interesting. When I read your reply I googled "national emergency" read more about what that actually entailed. According to Wiki- The US has been in a "national emergency" for the past 14+ years stating 9/11 as the cause.

Quote

Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama have renewed the state of national emergency annually since 2001, citing the 9/11 attacks, amounting to fourteen consecutive years. [8]



I'll admit I don't have a ton of background knowledge on this topic, and will defer to someone who does. But to me it looks like the Feds quite like the power they get under a "National Emergency", and at this point is just defacto new powers to the federal government. I never realized my entire adult life was experienced during a national emergency! I guess the next actual problems we run into will have to be a "super-duper national emergency" (which of course will require more surveillance).

I am really interested in how this shakes out now that the target of this overreach is one of the most valuable companies in the world. I was never a massive Apple supporter, but I am now. Hopefully they can send the message that claiming "national security" isn't a blank check to do whatever the federal government wants.
BASE 1384

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Hi Half,

Quote

Thanks for the insight- very interesting.



No thanks necessary. If you, or anyone, learned something from my post then it was well worth it.

IMO it is always nice to learn something.

And a good number of posters have caused me to go look something up and learn. Learning is always a good thing,

Jerry Baumchen

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What...The...F???

http://www.buzzfeed.com/johnpaczkowski/apple-terrorists-appleid-passcode-changed-in-government-cust:S

ETA More info on the change: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/02/apple-we-tried-to-help-fbi-terror-probe-but-someone-changed-icloud-password/

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

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Hooknswoop

I'm just thinking out loud, but why not find out who changed the password and use the new password to get the data via the iCloaud backup?

Derek V



Apple said they would turn over any information on their cloud server, so they suggested that the FBI leave it on and let it automatically backup to icloud - ufortunately, the password was changed preventing the autobackup if it was even enabled to begin with.

If we find the guy who changed the password, we could waterboard him and find out how he did it and why - problem solved.
Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

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Apple said they would turn over any information on their cloud server, so they suggested that the FBI leave it on and let it automatically backup to icloud - ufortunately, the password was changed preventing the autobackup if it was even enabled to begin with.



Right, I got all that.

Quote

If we find the guy who changed the password, we could waterboard him and find out how he did it and why - problem solved.



Right. Isn't the phone evidence? Shouldn't there be a chain of evidence? Shouldn't the FBI know exactly who had the phone and when?

Why can't the FBI ask the person who changed the password (as well as why) what the new password is? Then they can get the data using the iCloud back up process Apple described.

If they cannot find the person who changed the password, then the chain of evidence is compromised and that person could have done anything with the phone prior to changing the password.

Derek V

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Hooknswoop

Why can't the FBI ask the person who changed the password (as well as why) what the new password is? Then they can get the data using the iCloud back up process Apple described.



If they had the password, they could just get the data from the phone, rather than asking apple for the backed-up data.

If there was any information on Apple's servers in the first place, they would've handed it over already.

Edited for clarity
Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

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Coreeece

......
...find the guy who changed the password, ... and find out how he did it and why ....



If it is true that the password was changed after they had custody, then I think that is the problem the FBI needs to be vigorously pursuing. Someone inside is mucking up the investigation. Who and why!? Any information they could have gotten from that phone likely is not nearly as important or urgent as this.

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Hooknswoop

I get it, they do not have the password. They should ask the person that changed it what the new password is. Simple.

Derek V



Well, it's not the password to the phone itself. It's the password for the phone to cloud backup (I think).

I don't know if that password can be changed without physical possession of the phone or not.

I also don't know if there would be enough of a "data trail" to find out who changed it if it can be changed without phone in hand.

Maybe some of the tech savvy folks on here can answer those questions.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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ryoder


Interesting, but I think just the opposite. I doubt that Scalia would have ruled in favor of the FBI in this case based on some earlier opinions involving this type of information-gathering. Also, I think the Administration would have secretly wanted the FBI to win rather than secretly wishing for a loss as the writer suggested.

Also, I heard an analyst comment on the prospect of an 8-person Supreme Court that is effectively evenly split. He suggested that a lawyer could have a case tried at the Appellate level at a Circuit that is inclined to rule his way. After a ruling in that court, the case might then go the SC, but with a 4-4 split, the case would automatically revert to the Appeals Court ruling, making that the Law of the Land.

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wolfriverjoe

***I get it, they do not have the password. They should ask the person that changed it what the new password is. Simple.

Derek V



Well, it's not the password to the phone itself. It's the password for the phone to cloud backup (I think).

That doesn't make any sense.

The problem is that the FBI doesn't have the password and asked Apple to create a backdoor to the iphone allowing them to try millions of passwords without the phone erasing the data after 10 failed attempts.

Apple says no, we're not going to make a backdoor - that'll put millions of our costumers at risk, so how about you just leave the phone on and maybe it'll auto backup to our servers. If it does, we'll give you the backed-up data. The implication is that Apple doesn't need a password to access data that's backed up on their servers.
Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

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Why can't the FBI ask the person who changed the password (as well as why) what the new password is? Then they can get the data using the iCloud back up process Apple described.



That's not the problem. They know what the iCloud password is. The problem is that the iPhone doesn't know what the new iCloud password is. And to tell the iPhone what the new iCloud password is you need to unlock the iPhone with the iPhone password and enter the iCloud password into the iPhone. They can't do that without knowing what the iPhone password is, and no-one alive knows what the iPhone password is.

Short: The iPhone is not the iCloud and the iPhone password is not the iCloud password.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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Apple says no, we're not going to make a backdoor - that'll put millions of our costumers at risk, so how about you just leave the phone on and maybe it'll auto backup to our servers. If it does, we'll give you the backed-up data. The implication is that Apple doesn't need a password to access data that's backed up on their servers.



I don't think it's just an implication: With a legal court order, Apple can and does turn over iCloud data.

Quote

That doesn't make any sense.



What doesn't make sense? Cloud storage isn't intrinsically linked to any single device. Access to the cloud does not automatically give you access to the phone, and access to the phone does not automatically give you access to the cloud. They are two different things. That's why they've been able to search what is already on the cloud even though they can't access what is inside the phone.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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jakee

Quote

That doesn't make any sense.



What doesn't make sense? Cloud storage isn't intrinsically linked to any single device. Access to the cloud does not automatically give you access to the phone, and access to the phone does not automatically give you access to the cloud. They are two different things. That's why they've been able to search what is already on the cloud even though they can't access what is inside the phone.



My bad - after reading the article again, it was the Apple ID that was changed. I read it as if the actual password to the phone had been changed and subsequently prevented the backup.
Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

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jakee

Quote

Why can't the FBI ask the person who changed the password (as well as why) what the new password is? Then they can get the data using the iCloud back up process Apple described.



That's not the problem. They know what the iCloud password is. The problem is that the iPhone doesn't know what the new iCloud password is. And to tell the iPhone what the new iCloud password is you need to unlock the iPhone with the iPhone password and enter the iCloud password into the iPhone. They can't do that without knowing what the iPhone password is, and no-one alive knows what the iPhone password is.

Short: The iPhone is not the iCloud and the iPhone password is not the iCloud password.



You would think they would have needed the original iCloud password to in order to change it. Unless they convinced Apple to reset the iCloud password w/o providing the old one.
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

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ryoder

***

Quote

Why can't the FBI ask the person who changed the password (as well as why) what the new password is? Then they can get the data using the iCloud back up process Apple described.



That's not the problem. They know what the iCloud password is. The problem is that the iPhone doesn't know what the new iCloud password is. And to tell the iPhone what the new iCloud password is you need to unlock the iPhone with the iPhone password and enter the iCloud password into the iPhone. They can't do that without knowing what the iPhone password is, and no-one alive knows what the iPhone password is.

Short: The iPhone is not the iCloud and the iPhone password is not the iCloud password.


You would think they would have needed the original iCloud password to in order to change it. Unless they convinced Apple to reset the iCloud password w/o providing the old one.

Plot twist: this entire thing is a guerrilla marketing campaign to get the word iCloud recited as much as possible. :o Just reading that paragraph is giving me an iHeadache.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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The111


Plot twist: this entire thing is a guerrilla marketing campaign to get the word iCloud recited as much as possible. :o Just reading that paragraph is giving me an iHeadache.



Term: "iCloud"
Definition: A "service" pushed by Apple to put your all your personal information on Apple's servers where the Feds can access them easier.

I get really fed up with Apples heavy-handed pushing of that crap onto users.>:(
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

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ryoder

***
Plot twist: this entire thing is a guerrilla marketing campaign to get the word iCloud recited as much as possible. :o Just reading that paragraph is giving me an iHeadache.



Term: "iCloud"
Definition: A "service" pushed by Apple to put your all your personal information on Apple's servers where the Feds can access them easier.

Well at least it's safe from the bad guys. . .
Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

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ryoder

***

Quote

Why can't the FBI ask the person who changed the password (as well as why) what the new password is? Then they can get the data using the iCloud back up process Apple described.



That's not the problem. They know what the iCloud password is. The problem is that the iPhone doesn't know what the new iCloud password is. And to tell the iPhone what the new iCloud password is you need to unlock the iPhone with the iPhone password and enter the iCloud password into the iPhone. They can't do that without knowing what the iPhone password is, and no-one alive knows what the iPhone password is.

Short: The iPhone is not the iCloud and the iPhone password is not the iCloud password.


You would think they would have needed the original iCloud password to in order to change it. Unless they convinced Apple to reset the iCloud password w/o providing the old one.

They may well have had the iCloud password, or maybe Apple provided it for them. The way Apple is spinning it the Feds changed the iCloud password themselves though, and Apple only found out after they suggested the automatic iPhone to iCloud backup fix. Either way, having the iCloud password does not imply they ever knew the iPhone password or had access to the iPhone since you don't need to be in the iPhone to be in the iCloud.

(Yes, I'm doing it on purpose:P)
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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Stumpy

iCloud sucks anyway. Its one of the few things apple doesn't do terribly well.



Mmmm... It does what it says on the tin. To say that it "sucks" is a mischaracterization.

For instance, it doesn't say it will give you a blow job. If you expect all your software to give you a blow job, then I guess you're right in having the opinion that iCloud "sucks" (or doesn't in that case), but the fact remains, it does do exactly what it says it will do.

What's the problem?
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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