ryoder 1,381 #1 December 10, 2015 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/antonin-scalia-black-students_5668804ae4b009377b236c70?tlat6gvi Where is the facepalm emoticon when we really need it?"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #2 December 10, 2015 I would like to know if he is correct based off of factual statistics. If so he is frankly saying what is actually going on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headoverheels 291 #3 December 10, 2015 Hmmm, Scalia seems to have a higher opinion of UofT Austin than I do... His comments seem rather bizarre. I do think that students should go to the best (toughest academically) school at which they can do well, and not to a tougher one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,381 #4 December 10, 2015 Too bad we don't have a black justice...oh wait...OK, too bad we don't have a black justice who actually speaks. "There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,395 #5 December 10, 2015 Note that he has black friends so he is NOT racist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,340 #6 December 10, 2015 billvonNote that he has black friends so he is NOT racist. And he's trying to help them, by making sure they don't go to schools that are "too fast tracked" for them. Bill Engval is right."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #7 December 10, 2015 wolfriverjoe***Note that he has black friends so he is NOT racist. And he's trying to help them, by making sure they don't go to schools that are "too fast tracked" for them. Bill Engval is right. Shame on you! Everyone knows you don't do that. You just dumb down the curriculum so you don't hurt anyone's feelings by making them face reality.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #8 December 10, 2015 Much as it pains me to defend Scalia, his poorly phrased question does address a real concern. I recall that some California universities had the experience of seeing a low graduation rate among students admitted under diversity-enhancing programs. In this case the attorney for UT was prepared with actual data showing that students admitted with race as one consideration had a higher success rate than the general student population. However in general it does nobody any good to recruit them into a program they have not been properly prepared for by their high school education. It is a different situation when you have a larger pool of fully qualified applicants than you can take, so you can seek to enhance diversity without having to lower admission standards. The real problem (IMHO) that these court cases overlook is the huge disparity in quality of high school and earlier education. Funding formulas that are based on local school taxes ensure that schools in wealthy neighborhoods have lots of resources, and schools in poorer neighborhoods have to make do with much less, including out of date textbooks, lack of computer resources, and inability to afford classes such as art and music that enhance the educational experience and encourage kids to stay in school. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #9 December 10, 2015 GeorgiaDonFunding formulas that are based on local school taxes ensure that schools in wealthy neighborhoods have lots of resources, and schools in poorer neighborhoods have to make do with much less, including out of date textbooks, lack of computer resources, and inability to afford classes such as art and music that enhance the educational experience and encourage kids to stay in school. Don Funding can't make up for lack of positive parental involvement, which is the larger issue.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #10 December 10, 2015 I think the schools they go to prior to college might have more to do with it than parent(s). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #11 December 10, 2015 QuoteFunding can't make up for lack of positive parental involvement, which is the larger issue. But conversely society shouldn't be taking the view that 'hey kid, if your parents don't care about you then neither do we'.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #12 December 10, 2015 If they need to go to a community college and take some remedial courses and get up to par from a substandard highsschool before they transfer to these harder private universities then thats how it should be. A person should not be called racist for having to say this when the data suggests it could be true as the poster above implied. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,395 #13 December 10, 2015 QuoteIf they need to go to a community college and take some remedial courses and get up to par from a substandard highsschool before they transfer to these harder private universities then thats how it should be. A person should not be called racist for having to say this when the data suggests it could be true as the poster above implied. Students should go to remedial training if it would help them at a tougher college - not racist. Blacks need remedial training because otherwise they have trouble at tougher colleges - racist. In fact, it's almost the definition of racism - judging someone by their race rather than their skills. What's wrong with offering the same remedial training to everyone, regardless of their race? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #14 December 10, 2015 If the data suggest BLACK people are failing in these tougher schools are are getting in solely based off of diversity numbers then it is absolutely not racist to say the black students we are allowing in under this program need to go to a school with curriculum that better suits their high school education first. Thats what I understood him to say. Not black people as a whole but the black students forced on to the universities who are not ready for that level of school but were allowed in as a "token" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,395 #15 December 10, 2015 >is absolutely not racist to say the black students we are allowing in under this program need to >go to a school with curriculum that better suits their high school education first. Racism is making judgments about people based on their race. Your very argument was used to justify school segregation back in the 1950's. Most people now know better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #16 December 10, 2015 Given that approximately 40% of school funding is based on property values and taxes, poor black people get screwed. The Jim Crow south that was even worse. Some states closed schools to prevent blacks from attending. Seems almost systemic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #17 December 10, 2015 billvonWhat's wrong with offering the same remedial training to everyone, regardless of their race? WINNER what's wrong with admissions being based on performance only, regardless of race? these would seem to go hand in hand ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #18 December 10, 2015 rehmwa***What's wrong with offering the same remedial training to everyone, regardless of their race? WINNER what's wrong with admissions being based on performance only, regardless of race? these would seem to go hand in hand That's not fair. Let's dumb down the curriculum to make it more fair.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #19 December 10, 2015 Quotewhat's wrong with admissions being based on performance only, regardless of race? these would seem to go hand in hand In an ideal world, that would be perfect. The system that Texas used where the top 10% of a given high school graduates automatically got in seemed like a good, race neutral method of evening out the racial disparities in secondary education. For some reason, it didnn't seem to work. Diversity plummeted. Now, I know that to an individual student, there is no such thing as diversity. Each individual is just that, an individual. But to an organization, diversity can be important. I'm not sure what the answer it to make sure admissions are fair to the individual, while still meeting the organization's goals. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #20 December 10, 2015 DanGQuotewhat's wrong with admissions being based on performance only, regardless of race? these would seem to go hand in hand In an ideal world, that would be perfect. The system that Texas used where the top 10% of a given high school graduates automatically got in seemed like a good, race neutral method of evening out the racial disparities in secondary education. For some reason, it didnn't seem to work. Diversity plummeted. Now, I know that to an individual student, there is no such thing as diversity. Each individual is just that, an individual. But to an organization, diversity can be important. I'm not sure what the answer it to make sure admissions are fair to the individual, while still meeting the organization's goals. The only truly just way is performance based admission.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,121 #21 December 10, 2015 DanGQuotewhat's wrong with admissions being based on performance only, regardless of race? these would seem to go hand in hand In an ideal world, that would be perfect. The system that Texas used where the top 10% of a given high school graduates automatically got in seemed like a good, race neutral method of evening out the racial disparities in secondary education. For some reason, it didnn't seem to work. Diversity plummeted. Now, I know that to an individual student, there is no such thing as diversity. Each individual is just that, an individual. But to an organization, diversity can be important. I'm not sure what the answer it to make sure admissions are fair to the individual, while still meeting the organization's goals. That system only works if all High Schools are roughly at the same level. I think the biggest problem is that such is not the case. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #22 December 10, 2015 DanGI'm not sure what the answer it to make sure admissions are fair to the individual, while still meeting the organization's goals. the "fair" answer is clear - fight like hell whenever someone is treated different (denied or accepted) for ANY reason other than individual performance. no negative prejudice AND no special considerations Did you know that it's now a new definition of racism to try to sincerely live and espouse a color-blind philosophy? what do people think of that? (given - when someone 'poses' as color blind (insincere) to be a jerk or callous is a totally different thing) edit: also "diversity" is incredibly important. Diversity of thought, diversity of experience, etc etc. But that doesn't mean diversity of pointless cosmetic genetics. Ideas and thought are the true diversity. IMHO. Seems the trend is to emphasize shallow diversity and stifle diverse thinking and opinions. Is that a win? is that the vision? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #23 December 10, 2015 SkyDekkerThat system only works if all High Schools are roughly at the same level. I think the biggest problem is that such is not the case. I think that's true for short term thinking, but not long term thinking. Tough balancing act IMO, hard to fully buy-in on either even with the best of intentions, you have to worry about the negative effects of going in full on either philosophy. and it's worse when the 'corrective' mechanisms actually aggravate the problem yet continue to be pushed... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,120 #24 December 10, 2015 Performance is based on a context (ever hear of grading on a curve?) As long as the contexts are different for different people, then "performance" is going to be something like using only the SAT, because it's exactly the same for everyone. Of course, that's not great, either. As far as the automatic 10% getting into UT, yes, but the school counselors have to be on the ball. As it happens, my son was the valedictorian, and applied to UT. Guaranteed in, right? Well, turns out there were more forms to fill out, and he missed one. The notification from UT was "you missed this form, sorry." They're overcrowded, and have no interest whatsoever in encouraging students to attend. But he was very happy with where he ended up. Poverty is the hardest thing to overcome, not race. But they're tightly correlated in the US, so people tend to conflate them. The most successful way to move kids from impoverished ghetto backgrounds into mainstream universities currently seems to be to have a "posse" system, where each kid has an assigned group that they can fit in with. When you're poor, you're more interdependent with your neighbors (rides, a little cash, child care, renting a room when your cousin is evicted...). The thought is that setting up an interdependence group for students who are used to that will help them not to feel like a complete fish out of water. It sucks to be irredeemably poor. Yeah, there isn't any completely irredeemably poor, but it gets pretty close when you have no family support or example of how to live without its being from paycheck to paycheck. We all learned from our parents. If we were lucky, we had good examples, or we had the grit/intelligence to learn positive lessons from the bad examples. That leaves a lot of room for people who aren't above average either in grit/intelligence, or luck in parental choice. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #25 December 10, 2015 Wendy for the win - again. nice post ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
