Active Shooters in San Bernardino, CA

[Boomerdog 0]

Quote

I would love to try one of these https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYMXafe60LU

Get in line, you and a hell of a lot of the rest of us.

[rushmc 18]

piisfish

you guys definitely need more guns.

In support of your point

Quote

DETROIT (CBS Detroit) More guns, fewer problems. That, at least, is Detroit Police Chief’s James Craig’s view of Detroit and fears about a possible terrorist attack.

While cities around the world are on heightened alert following a devastating ISIS attack in Paris, Detroit’s police chief says he believes the fear that armed citizens would return fire serves as a deterrent for a potential terrorist attack in the rust belt city.

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2015/12/01/armed-citizens-deter-terrorist-attacks-in-detroit-police-chief-says/

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[GeorgiaDon 340]

cvfd1399

***The person that gave them the guns illegally should be facing a minimum of 10 years per offense IMO

http://smartgunlaws.org/straw-purchases-policy-summary/

Quote

Federal Law

Federal law prohibits straw purchases by criminalizing the making of false statements to an FFL about a material fact on ATF Form 4473, or presenting false identification in connection with the firearm purchase. Two federal statutes – 18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(6) and 18 U.S.C. § 924(a)(1)(A) – are the primary laws under which straw purchases are prosecuted.

First, 18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(6) prohibits any person:

[I]n connection with the acquisition or attempted acquisition of any firearm or ammunition from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, knowingly to make any false or fictitious oral or written statement or to furnish or exhibit any false, fictitious, or misrepresented identification, intended or likely to deceive such importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector with respect to any fact material to the lawfulness of the sale or other disposition of such firearm or ammunition.

Subject to limited exceptions, 18 U.S.C. § 924(a)(1)(A) imposes criminal penalties, such as fines and imprisonment, upon any person who:

[K]nowingly makes any false statement or representation with respect to the information required by [federal firearms law] to be kept in the records of a person licensed under [federal firearms law] or in applying for any license or exemption or relief from disability under the provisions of [federal firearms law].

These false statements or representations are punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and up to 10 years in prison.14

The law and penalty is already there for this crime. Just because its not a mandatory 10 I dont see anyone CURRENTLY going aww fuck it I will take 1,2,3 years for this if caught, but suddenly say NO way if its a mandatory 10 years. Who willingly takes a chance on something 1-10 but will whole heartedly stop if its a mandatory 10. If thats the case there would never be any 3 strike offenders they would stop before the last mandatory harsh sentence.I have seen nothing to indicate any straw purchase. Can someone point me to any verified information that shows the long guns were obtained by a straw purchase?

The male killer (I don't care to name him) purchased the handguns legally a few years ago. He has never had any trouble with the law (until now of course). He was a natural born US citizen. Up until he unleashed this carnage he was just as legal as the rest of us (I'm making an assumption about "the rest of us" of course) to own firearms. He certainly would have passed any background check. Even if a former roommate purchased the long guns and then sold them to him, or gave them, or loaned them, no law was violated. A "straw purchase" requires someone to obtain a firearm with the intent to pass it on to someone they know is legally barred from having firearms. There is no evidence that happened in this case.

I think the point is worth making because, although cracking down on straw purchases could help reduce the flow of guns to violent individuals with criminal records, it would not have helped here. As long as people without criminal records can accumulate any amount of firearms and ammunition, we will just have to live with a certain frequency of such attacks, or so it seems to me. Mass shootings (defined as those in which four or more people are shot) occur ever single day in the US. Everyone professes to be outraged, but no-one is outraged enough to consider budging one inch in terms of their own convenience or perceived rights. Extreme gun rights supporters demand we give up medical privacy, publishing lists of everyone who has ever been treated for substance abuse, depression, OCD, whatever. Extreme gun control advocates demand that gun owners, who have never violated any law, give up their firearms and their right to self defense. Any attempt to seek a middle ground is doomed to failure because everybody thinks if they give an inch the "other side" will take a mile.

IMHO things will never really change until there is a real change in the American psyche. Other countries with high rates of gun ownership do not have the same high rate of violence because people in those countries are less inclined to view violence as a legitimate strategy to achieve goals. American culture is awash in worship of aggression. Dirty Harry and the gunslinger of Western lore are cultural icons. Everybody knows of Bonnie and Clyde, who are now remembered as rebels against the unfairness of rich bankers and such; nobody gives a thought to the innocent bank tellers they slaughtered. The worship of the military is part of the blood and bone of US culture. Who is more admired, the sniper who killed hundreds or the surgeon who saved thousands?

Add to that the current addiction to anger as the preferred emotion of the day. Anger at liberals, anger at the right wing, anger at Muslims, anger at Christians, anger at the rich, anger at the poor. Anger spewing like venom out of talk radio, off of the internet, out of the television. Retreat to a cave in the mountains and lock out all the "others".

Of course not all Americans fit this picture, but a lot do. Many who own guns simply enjoy target shooting (as is the case in my family), but many choose to own guns because they are fearful, mistrusting or afraid of their neighbors, of strangers, of the government.

Guns in the hands of peaceful people are not a problem. Guns in the hands of people who are overly influenced by anger, fear, and a deeply seated belief that in the end violence against any perceived threat or challenge is unfortunate but justified is a problem. If you add to that an exaggerated sense of self-importance, the perception of being unfairly disrespected or ignored, you have a bigger problem. Guns in the hands of criminals who would use their power to take things from others is a huge problem.

Guns are inanimate objects. Left to their own devices, they will do nothing. To fix the problem of gun violence we have to fix people. That will take a long time, but like any such a problem the start has to be acceptance of the nature of the problem. We will be rid of the problem when the day comes when no-one would contemplate violence as a means to an end. That day will likely never come, but there is a lot that could be done to move us in that direction.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[RonD1120 58]

I think we should teach gun familiarization and gun safety in high school, the same as driver education. Then it would be a clear path to responsible ownership and concealed carry permits.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[billvon 2,380]

>The current peer review process has been coopted by those with agendas

Ah, so now you deny all peer-reviewed science? Or just that which you disagree with?

[RonD1120 58]

Your point is well stated.

IMO, the situation is not going to improve, be solved or go away. End times prophecy and all that.

I believe in and stand for self defense.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Croc 0]

GeorgiaDon

The male killer (I don't care to name him) purchased the handguns legally a few years ago. He has never had any trouble with the law (until now of course). He was a natural born US citizen. Up until he unleashed this carnage he was just as legal as the rest of us (I'm making an assumption about "the rest of us" of course) to own firearms. He certainly would have passed any background check. Even if a former roommate purchased the long guns and then sold them to him, or gave them, or loaned them, no law was violated. A "straw purchase" requires someone to obtain a firearm with the intent to pass it on to someone they know is legally barred from having firearms. There is no evidence that happened in this case.

I think the point is worth making because, although cracking down on straw purchases could help reduce the flow of guns to violent individuals with criminal records, it would not have helped here. As long as people without criminal records can accumulate any amount of firearms and ammunition, we will just have to live with a certain frequency of such attacks, or so it seems to me. Mass shootings (defined as those in which four or more people are shot) occur ever single day in the US. Everyone professes to be outraged, but no-one is outraged enough to consider budging one inch in terms of their own convenience or perceived rights. Extreme gun rights supporters demand we give up medical privacy, publishing lists of everyone who has ever been treated for substance abuse, depression, OCD, whatever. Extreme gun control advocates demand that gun owners, who have never violated any law, give up their firearms and their right to self defense. Any attempt to seek a middle ground is doomed to failure because everybody thinks if they give an inch the "other side" will take a mile.

IMHO things will never really change until there is a real change in the American psyche. Other countries with high rates of gun ownership do not have the same high rate of violence because people in those countries are less inclined to view violence as a legitimate strategy to achieve goals. American culture is awash in worship of aggression. Dirty Harry and the gunslinger of Western lore are cultural icons. Everybody knows of Bonnie and Clyde, who are now remembered as rebels against the unfairness of rich bankers and such; nobody gives a thought to the innocent bank tellers they slaughtered. The worship of the military is part of the blood and bone of US culture. Who is more admired, the sniper who killed hundreds or the surgeon who saved thousands?

Add to that the current addiction to anger as the preferred emotion of the day. Anger at liberals, anger at the right wing, anger at Muslims, anger at Christians, anger at the rich, anger at the poor. Anger spewing like venom out of talk radio, off of the internet, out of the television. Retreat to a cave in the mountains and lock out all the "others".

Of course not all Americans fit this picture, but a lot do. Many who own guns simply enjoy target shooting (as is the case in my family), but many choose to own guns because they are fearful, mistrusting or afraid of their neighbors, of strangers, of the government.

Guns in the hands of peaceful people are not a problem. Guns in the hands of people who are overly influenced by anger, fear, and a deeply seated belief that in the end violence against any perceived threat or challenge is unfortunate but justified is a problem. If you add to that an exaggerated sense of self-importance, the perception of being unfairly disrespected or ignored, you have a bigger problem. Guns in the hands of criminals who would use their power to take things from others is a huge problem.

Guns are inanimate objects. Left to their own devices, they will do nothing. To fix the problem of gun violence we have to fix people. That will take a long time, but like any such a problem the start has to be acceptance of the nature of the problem. We will be rid of the problem when the day comes when no-one would contemplate violence as a means to an end. That day will likely never come, but there is a lot that could be done to move us in that direction.

Don

+1

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

[mistercwood 287]

GeorgiaDon

IMHO things will never really change until there is a real change in the American psyche. Other countries with high rates of gun ownership do not have the same high rate of violence because people in those countries are less inclined to view violence as a legitimate strategy to achieve goals. American culture is awash in worship of aggression. Dirty Harry and the gunslinger of Western lore are cultural icons. Everybody knows of Bonnie and Clyde, who are now remembered as rebels against the unfairness of rich bankers and such; nobody gives a thought to the innocent bank tellers they slaughtered. The worship of the military is part of the blood and bone of US culture. Who is more admired, the sniper who killed hundreds or the surgeon who saved thousands?

Add to that the current addiction to anger as the preferred emotion of the day. Anger at liberals, anger at the right wing, anger at Muslims, anger at Christians, anger at the rich, anger at the poor. Anger spewing like venom out of talk radio, off of the internet, out of the television. Retreat to a cave in the mountains and lock out all the "others".

Of course not all Americans fit this picture, but a lot do. Many who own guns simply enjoy target shooting (as is the case in my family), but many choose to own guns because they are fearful, mistrusting or afraid of their neighbors, of strangers, of the government.

Guns in the hands of peaceful people are not a problem. Guns in the hands of people who are overly influenced by anger, fear, and a deeply seated belief that in the end violence against any perceived threat or challenge is unfortunate but justified is a problem. If you add to that an exaggerated sense of self-importance, the perception of being unfairly disrespected or ignored, you have a bigger problem. Guns in the hands of criminals who would use their power to take things from others is a huge problem.

Guns are inanimate objects. Left to their own devices, they will do nothing. To fix the problem of gun violence we have to fix people. That will take a long time, but like any such a problem the start has to be acceptance of the nature of the problem. We will be rid of the problem when the day comes when no-one would contemplate violence as a means to an end. That day will likely never come, but there is a lot that could be done to move us in that direction.

Don

Bingo. So much truth in those paragraphs...

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[rushmc 18]

billvon

>The current peer review process has been coopted by those with agendas



Ah, so now you deny all peer-reviewed science? Or just that which you disagree with?

Dont deny it. It is just broken right now

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[RonD1120 58]

How about them CA gun laws and restrictions on extended round magazines?

Bottom line, it is not about climate change or global warming. It is about Islam.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[rushmc 18]

RonD1120

How about them CA gun laws and restrictions on extended round magazines?

Bottom line, it is not about climate change or global warming. It is about Islam.

Yes

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,380]

>Bottom line, it is not about climate change or global warming. It is about Islam.

And Christianity, per the recent Colorado shooting.

[normiss 620]

Precisely.

[Kadde 0]

rushmc

***http://www.9news.com/story/news/nation/2015/12/02/officials-shooting-reported-calif-golf-course/76675776/

Police just confirmed 14 dead, suspect(s) still on the run. Still an active, chaotic scene. Not much info yet.

Before the name came out CNN was reporting that, because the attack was on a government group, it appeared to be a right wing militia group.

Fucking idiots at CNN did it to themselves again

Not necessarily wrong, if they turn out to have religous motives they would be considered conservative/right-leaning. ;)

[RonD1120 58]

billvon

>Bottom line, it is not about climate change or global warming. It is about Islam.

And Christianity, per the recent Colorado shooting.

I have chosen my side. I am in a state of preparation for my wife and family. We have domestic instability, Islamic instability and economic instability is coming next year.

Our progressive Islamofascist administration believes that the root of the problem is prayer and gun ownership. That is if you are a Republican, see the ibx thread.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[NewGuy2005 51]

RonD1120

Our progressive Islamofascist administration....

Do you think Obama is an Islamofascist? Islamofascist sounds like Taliban or ISIS. Are you saying he is in that category?

[RonD1120 58]

NewGuy2005

***
Our progressive Islamofascist administration....

Do you think Obama is an Islamofascist? Islamofascist sounds like Taliban or ISIS. Are you saying he is in that category?

I have borrowed the term coined by Michael Savage in his latest book, Government Zero, see pp. 10-14.

To answer your question, yes. I believe he is a passive-aggressive version.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Boomerdog 0]

Quote

>Bottom line, it is not about climate change or global warming. It is about Islam.

And Christianity, per the recent Colorado shooting.

Sooo....as the Left contends that not all Muslims can be blamed for radical Jihadi murder sprees, why are law abiding gun owners AND Christians blamed for the actions of a few mass shooters? Why is CAIR not as guilty as the NRA AND Christians in the liberal mind?

Selective accountability much?

No sooner did this tragedy go down, one of the Left's leading assholes, Martin O'Malley, former governor of the People's Republic of Maryland is out there blaming the NRA.

And the beat goes on.

[LyraM45 0]

rushmc

***

Quote

The problem is not guns.

That right there is laughable. Guns are indeed a CONTRIBUTING factor in mass shootings.

As far as gun laws, the gun buyback in Australia seems to be working quite well. Total number of homicides down in both number and per capita. Guns used in robberies down per capita. Cost of guns on the black market have skyrocketed, putting them out of reach for many criminals.

http://www.ibtimes.com.au/cost-illegal-firearms-australia-has-skyrocketed-criminals-now-do-gun-sharing-1378871

http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide/weapon.html

the root problem is not guns

It is a symptom

And I do not give a fuck about any other country and besides
There are stories out there refuting your links but it really does not matter


Not giving a fuck about other countries and examining what they're doing and results they're getting out of it is one of the problems with staunch pro gun people. You should give a fuck. Why not examine other data sets and see what is working in other places and question if it could work for us?

That is like 4 Jewish deli shops in a 1 mile radius all having different business models. 3 are successful and 1 is not. You don't think that one shop is not going to stop and think to examine the other business models and question why it's successful and his is not and then maybe apply some changes to his to see if it's as successful as the rest? Of course he will. I highly doubt he's sitting back going, "I don't give a fuck about the other shops. I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing because it's obviously working."

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[piisfish 135]

RonD1120

I think we should teach gun familiarization and gun safety in high school, the same as driver education. Then it would be a clear path to responsible ownership and concealed carry permits.

For once I am kind of thinking the same way as you do. Education is part of the key. Owning 17 guns per capita is not (in my opinion).

Actually I would feel safer in the US if I (as a foreigner who has a "decent" gun education) could also carry a weapon (after required tests and background checks).

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[rushmc 18]

LyraM45

******

Quote

The problem is not guns.

That right there is laughable. Guns are indeed a CONTRIBUTING factor in mass shootings.

As far as gun laws, the gun buyback in Australia seems to be working quite well. Total number of homicides down in both number and per capita. Guns used in robberies down per capita. Cost of guns on the black market have skyrocketed, putting them out of reach for many criminals.

http://www.ibtimes.com.au/cost-illegal-firearms-australia-has-skyrocketed-criminals-now-do-gun-sharing-1378871

http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide/weapon.html

the root problem is not guns

It is a symptom

And I do not give a fuck about any other country and besides
There are stories out there refuting your links but it really does not matter


Not giving a fuck about other countries and examining what they're doing and results they're getting out of it is one of the problems with staunch pro gun people. You should give a fuck. Why not examine other data sets and see what is working in other places and question if it could work for us?

That is like 4 Jewish deli shops in a 1 mile radius all having different business models. 3 are successful and 1 is not. You don't think that one shop is not going to stop and think to examine the other business models and question why it's successful and his is not and then maybe apply some changes to his to see if it's as successful as the rest? Of course he will. I highly doubt he's sitting back going, "I don't give a fuck about the other shops. I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing because it's obviously working."

Ok
I understand your point but, other countries operate under completely different models
It is not an apples to apples comparison

As far as the shops comparison, it is not the same thing
In that case you are looking at a business model. And those models all have to work under the same rules

So, I do not give a fuck
And many times, if one spends the time to look into the links (which I did NOT this time) it is heavily slanted toward an agenda.

The issues in the US, while disturbing, happen less often than the media and anti gunners would have us believe

The same is done with white cops killing unarmed blacks. Does it happen? Yes but it is rare. Again, that is not what the media and the blacklivesmatter fools would have us beleive

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,621]

rushmc

The same is done with white cops killing unarmed blacks. Does it happen? Yes but it is rare.

.

Oh, nothing to worry about then. Carry on.

(I wonder how countries like Britain manage to avoid so many cop-on-unarmed-citizen killings).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

kallend

***

The same is done with white cops killing unarmed blacks. Does it happen? Yes but it is rare.

.

Oh, nothing to worry about then. Carry on.

(I wonder how countries like Britain manage to avoid so many cop-on-unarmed-citizen killings).

I wonder about a lot of things you puke up....

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[nolhtairt 0]

The memes of Farook before and after pics are already out, and it's not for the faint of hearts...

[SkyDekker 1,121]

Quote

Guns are inanimate objects. Left to their own devices, they will do nothing. To fix the problem of gun violence we have to fix people.

I agree with much of what you are saying, but this statement is simply too one sided.

Table saws are inanimate objects. However when people start losing body parts on them, we both teach safety and altered the equipment.

With almost all inanimate objects, we look at both training people and make alterations to the product to make it safer to use.