BIGUN 1,242 #1 November 16, 2015 Thanks for the depth of your reply, Bill. And, the offer to discuss among moderators. @everyone else : Have you noticed this forum to have deteriorated into the same 8-10 people throwing rocks at each other. I too, was more hard line about global warming until about six years ago when Bill posted (I don't even remember the article).... which made me think, observe and investigate. One of those awesome crisp cool mornings, I was sitting in the hot tub watching the sun come up and as I looked up, the sky was literally crossed with hundred(s) of contrails. I began to think, "That's exhaust." At that point, I began to research the whole system of global warming, pollution. I was reminded of California having to change their laws because people were having to walk around with surgical masks on (which was little help) as we see China doing today and changing their emission laws in highly populated areas by moving their factories away from cities and forcing new re-tooling to get the emissions down when they re-open. Global warming/warning is real. It's not a philosophical discussion about the existence of God, Allah; nor a debate on the virtues of Socratic knowledge of Liberal Arts. It's about science and scientific methodology (measuring, trending; use of Scatter Diagrams, Pareto Charts, Stratification Diagrams, etc.) But, most importantly; it's about scientific peer review, sharing of knowledge and consensus among some of the world's greatest scientists during a time when technology brings more quality results to a broader range of scientists than we could fifty years ago. It's not about finding some McArticle from some wayward "news" aggregator that has one sentence that allows you to dig in your heels on your position. Why is it we believed that science could put a man on the moon and then do it; but are not receptive to science about global warming? On that note, pick a point. Any point on the global-warming spectrum and read. Not just the scholarly articles, but then look at the contributing authors and move outward to read varying viewpoints from other scientists. And, even if your position remains the same, then at least you'll have a stronger foundation to base your dissenting opinion. Use "Google Scholar" to find the information you seek. No matter which side. For more on Global-Warming - Here's a couple of starting points: http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/GlobalWarming/ - which has a reference list of authors at the bottom with hyperlinks to their findings. How many people die or how it will affect the future of longevity. This is called "Speaker's Corner" not "Pig Roast." Please keep issues on topic, because when we're discussing something important and it deteriorates to "Moron," "Coonass" and two ninety degree turns off topic... I'm done and there is no use in contributing among the noise to signal ratio. I love discussing issues with you guys and I love every fellow skydiver for different reasons. Its why I only post on DZ.com of all the forums that are available. /mic drop ~Johnny Marko ETC = Spelling errors.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyMarko 1 #2 November 16, 2015 BIGUN /mic drop ~Johnny Marko k Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,242 #3 November 16, 2015 I hope you took that as credit and a for the last time you annotated my last missive. If not; I apologize. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #4 November 16, 2015 BIGUNThanks for the depth of your reply, Bill. And, the offer to discuss among moderators. @everyone else : Have you noticed this forum to have deteriorated into the same 8-10 people throwing rocks at each other. I too, was more hard line about global warming until about six years ago when Bill posted (I don't even remember the article).... which made me think, observe and investigate. One of those awesome crisp cool mornings, I was sitting in the hot tub watching the sun come up and as I looked up, the sky was literally crossed with hundred(s) of contrails. I began to think, "That's exhaust." At that point, I began to research the whole system of global warming, pollution. I was reminded of California having to change their laws because people were having to walk around with surgical masks on (which was little help) as we see China doing today and changing their emission laws in highly populated areas by moving their factories away from cities and forcing new re-tooling to get the emissions down when they re-open. Global warming/warning is real. It's not a philosophical discussion about the existence of God, Allah; nor a debate on the virtues of Socratic knowledge of Liberal Arts. It's about science and scientific methodology (measuring, trending; use of Scatter Diagrams, Pareto Charts, Stratification Diagrams, etc.) But, most importantly; it's about scientific peer review, sharing of knowledge and consensus among some of the world's greatest scientists during a time when technology brings more quality results to a broader range of scientists than we could fifty years ago. It's not about finding some McArticle from some wayward "news" aggregator that has one sentence that allows you to dig in your heels on your position. Why is it we believed that science could put a man on the moon and then do it; but are not receptive to science about global warming? On that note, pick a point. Any point on the global-warming spectrum and read. Not just the scholarly articles, but then look at the contributing authors and move outward to read varying viewpoints from other scientists. And, even if your position remains the same, then at least you'll have a stronger foundation to base your dissenting opinion. Use "Google Scholar" to find the information you seek. No matter which side. For more on Global-Warming - Here's a couple of starting points: http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/GlobalWarming/ - which has a reference list of authors at the bottom with hyperlinks to their findings. How many people die or how it will affect the future of longevity. This is called "Speaker's Corner" not "Pig Roast." Please keep issues on topic, because when we're discussing something important and it deteriorates to "Moron," "Coonass" and two ninety degree turns off topic... I'm done and there is no use in contributing among the noise to signal ratio. I love discussing issues with you guys and I love every fellow skydiver for different reasons. Its why I only post on DZ.com of all the forums that are available. /mic drop ~Johnny Marko ETC = Spelling errors. Not ti be too picky, and I'm glad you let you're awareness of the environment expand, but the premise of why is maybe not exactly correct. It is common that people believe that contrails are exhaust. They are actually just the water in the exhaust being frozen into ice crystals because of abrupt temp/pressure changes. I have stated many times that man is affecting the climate. I'm not disputing that. I think that anyone that disputes it outright should have their cognitive abilities checked by a professional. What irks me is the amount of fear that the far left wants to impart on the public. It's annoying in the extreme.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,410 #5 November 16, 2015 QuoteWhat irks me is the amount of fear that the far left wants to impart on the public. It's annoying in the extreme. Irks me too, from all sides. Fear seems to be the only motivator left to get people to do something. Mushroom cloud Obama will take all your guns Sharia Law is coming New York will flood Muslims are scary The list goes on and on and on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #6 November 16, 2015 Muslims? Hell... the Canadians scare the hell out of me. They're going to come down here and apologize to me. How am I supposed to respond to that?-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,410 #7 November 16, 2015 rhaigMuslims? Hell... the Canadians scare the hell out of me. They're going to come down here and apologize to me. How am I supposed to respond to that? Sorry. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #8 November 16, 2015 rhaig Muslims? Hell... the Canadians scare the hell out of me. They're going to come down here and apologize to me. How am I supposed to respond to that? Why do the Canuckians hate us so much as to send us a Beiber? What did we ever do to them? Ok, well, in our defense Quaid was not our fault. They let him in.Can we send Beiber back now that Quaid was deported?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,918 #9 November 16, 2015 >It is common that people believe that contrails are exhaust. They are actually >just the water in the exhaust being frozen into ice crystals because of abrupt >temp/pressure changes. Well, right - but the contrails are exhaust _and_ they are water. Exhaust in a modern aircraft is mainly CO2 and H20. The H2O acts immediately (in many cases) to form contrails; these have a measurable but small effect on climate. The CO2 is a longer term issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #10 November 16, 2015 billvon >It is common that people believe that contrails are exhaust. They are actually >just the water in the exhaust being frozen into ice crystals because of abrupt >temp/pressure changes. Well, right - but the contrails are exhaust _and_ they are water. Exhaust in a modern aircraft is mainly CO2 and H20. The H2O acts immediately (in many cases) to form contrails; these have a measurable but small effect on climate. The CO2 is a longer term issue. See, we can agree on stuff.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #11 November 16, 2015 How much is the co2 output per person per hour compared to other forms of travel like passenger cars and cruise ships which is what airplanes replace for long distance travel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #12 November 16, 2015 Quote frozen into ice crystals because of abrupt temp/pressure changes. And ice is cold...and reflects sunlight...so jets combat global warming. Wow, will Gore cut me a check for supporting such an environmentally friendly industry? You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,918 #13 November 16, 2015 >And ice is cold... But by definition warmer than the air it is freezing in. >and reflects sunlight...so jets combat global warming. If they only flew during the day, and the contrails went away by sunset - perhaps! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,918 #14 November 16, 2015 >How much is the co2 output per person per hour compared to other forms of travel Human - .9kg of CO2 per day, .038kg per hour Car (assuming 24mpg, US average) - 550kg of CO2 per day, 23kg per hour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #15 November 16, 2015 So as bad as it is is still the best form of mass transport for what we use it for. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,918 #16 November 16, 2015 >So as bad as it is is still the best form of mass transport for what we use it for. It's pretty good. Not as good as buses or trains, better than single occupancy cars. For taking a family of four across the country, efficient aircraft vs efficient car is about a wash. (Who said it was "bad" BTW?) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #17 November 16, 2015 No one. People here bash me for asking simple questions when I could have gotten the answers from Google. But sometimes asking the easy ones, provides others like yourself the oppourtunity to offer things Google would not have normally shown me, and brings up different avenues of discussion. TLDR. It wasn't a setup, I was trying to learn from you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,384 #18 November 16, 2015 Well, people who are trying to make a point by pounding on it seem to use "bad" more often, just as they use libtard, conservatard, and lots of other pejoratives. Some seem to think that language like that can turn opinions more effectively than actual information. Bigun, thanks for starting a thread that made it worth re-reading my post, and re-wording it As far as the fear, it's a powerful motivator for some. Whether it's Mooslims, gun-grabbing, nukes, polluters, plastic bags, CO2, meat, pesticides, GMOs, illegal aliens, or lots of other things. Just remember that quote about trading security for freedom, and then balance it against making sacrifices for a better future Wendy P. There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,242 #19 November 16, 2015 cvfd1399How much is the co2 output per person per hour compared to other forms of travel like passenger cars and cruise ships which is what airplanes replace for long distance travel. The following is an excerpt from a five page abstract: Quote How do different modes of transport compare, for their CO2 emissions? "Comparing different forms of transport, here are approximate figures of how much energy is used. It is impossible to give accurate figures, as it depends on how many people are traveling in each form of transport, the length of the journey, the age and type of vehicle, the speed etc. Accurate and comprehensive figures comparing means of transport do not seem to exist. The figures below it are compiled from a variety of sources. They are all approximate, but help give an indication of how different modes compare. Page 2, table below it entitled, "Approximate energy consumption across different modes of transport" SOURCE: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDEQFjADahUKEwjS2vuY5pXJAhWILogKHTuOAxg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aef.org.uk%2Fdownloads%2FHowdoesairtravelcompare.doc&usg=AFQjCNF7-TOZXS7YnArFZKk-NGsw6B_ACg&sig2=OGmOmuOLV1v65EH6AiQQwgNobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #20 November 16, 2015 So it's good only in really long flights and only compared to suv/truck type emission vehicles. I knew the trains were good from GE's tv ads :). But no one uses it for long distance mass travel, only for quirky vacations. It's also kinda sobering to see the sop for some ships. You have to burn good clean fuel when you are in certain place near shores then once out in the ocean can switch to bunker fuel I think it is called which is dirty junky stuff. QuoteThe sulfur content of bunker fuels used today by most large ships is 1,800 times higher -- about 27,000 ppm -- than the 15 ppm of sulfur content allowed in fuels for road transport. Even with the ECA now in effect, shipping fuels are 600 times dirtier than on-road diesel truck fuel Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #21 November 16, 2015 cvfd1399No one. People here bash me for asking simple questions when I could have gotten the answers from Google. But sometimes asking the easy ones, provides others like yourself the oppourtunity to offer things Google would not have normally shown me, and brings up different avenues of discussion. TLDR. It wasn't a setup, I was trying to learn from you. You ask simple questions, unable to find out answers by yourself. What will happen if you have to find solutions/answers on difficult ones?? How old are you, again? Are you a marine, in the meantime? dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #22 November 16, 2015 christelsabine***No one. People here bash me for asking simple questions when I could have gotten the answers from Google. But sometimes asking the easy ones, provides others like yourself the oppourtunity to offer things Google would not have normally shown me, and brings up different avenues of discussion. TLDR. It wasn't a setup, I was trying to learn from you. You ask simple questions, unable to find out answers by yourself. What will happen if you have to find solutions/answers on difficult ones?? How old are you, again? Are you a marine, in the meantime? billvon can you please... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #23 November 16, 2015 cvfd1399 ******No one. People here bash me for asking simple questions when I could have gotten the answers from Google. But sometimes asking the easy ones, provides others like yourself the oppourtunity to offer things Google would not have normally shown me, and brings up different avenues of discussion. TLDR. It wasn't a setup, I was trying to learn from you. You ask simple questions, unable to find out answers by yourself. What will happen if you have to find solutions/answers on difficult ones?? How old are you, again? Are you a marine, in the meantime? billvon can you please... That should read: Mommy, can you please .... dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #24 November 17, 2015 christelsabine *********No one. People here bash me for asking simple questions when I could have gotten the answers from Google. But sometimes asking the easy ones, provides others like yourself the oppourtunity to offer things Google would not have normally shown me, and brings up different avenues of discussion. TLDR. It wasn't a setup, I was trying to learn from you. You ask simple questions, unable to find out answers by yourself. What will happen if you have to find solutions/answers on difficult ones?? How old are you, again? Are you a marine, in the meantime? billvon can you please... That should read: Mommy, can you please .... Again more of the problem in SC. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #25 November 17, 2015 cvfd1399 ************No one. People here bash me for asking simple questions when I could have gotten the answers from Google. But sometimes asking the easy ones, provides others like yourself the oppourtunity to offer things Google would not have normally shown me, and brings up different avenues of discussion. TLDR. It wasn't a setup, I was trying to learn from you. You ask simple questions, unable to find out answers by yourself. What will happen if you have to find solutions/answers on difficult ones?? How old are you, again? Are you a marine, in the meantime? billvon can you please... That should read: Mommy, can you please .... Again more of the problem in SC. No one here disagrees with you. There are some of those, and some like you and some like me. This is a great melting pot of self important people.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites