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JohnnyMarko

Paris attacks: Shootings kill 18, hostage-taking at Bataclan arts centre

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Iago

******
Years later the United States was ridiculed, criticized, and attacked by the same countries for going into that part of The World and trying to do something about it.



To be fair, our fucking around in that part of the world is why we had limited-time-only nonstop flights to the WTC in the first place.

For decades The World has expected the US to secure the Gulf shipping, escort the tankers, and protect the NATO friendly countries. I had a coworker years ago who served in the Navy in the early 80s and could tell you all about being at general quarters for 18 hours on a destroyer doing tanker escort. Not fun.

But everything that happened was our fault. OK, fine.

You Sir, are entitled to your opinion. This is still a free country.

Escorting tankers doesn't involve overthrowing governments and supporting tyrants.
cavete terrae.

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>But when 80+ people get shot execution style in a theater and there is no
>response from the hundreds remaining inside it makes me wonder just a bit...

Imagine if the French response to 9/11 was "well, if the US had had more of well-controlled national air transportation system, you have to wonder if this would have happened at all . . . "

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Or will The World finally step up and decide to Unite and take care of the problem?



A) When you say 'the world' you mean 'the west'. As far as 'the world' is concerned 150 people (as tragic as it is) barely registers on the scale of shit that ISIS has done and is doing.

B) 'Taking care of the problem' is what created the current problem. How do you plan to do it better this time?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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77 Senators and approx 69% of the House gave Bush a green light to go into Iraq. 40% of the Democratic side of the House sided with the President. This was a thinly decided House and Senate as far as Party lines were concerned and the President's request under the War Powers Act/Res could have easily be defeated.



And it sucks that they all felt they had to demonstrate how warlike they were as well. But when the Executive is in control of the gathering and flow of intel it sure makes it easier to push an agenda.

Not really sure what the House's involvement in the decision to go to war has to do with the consequences of that decision though...
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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Iago

But when 80+ people get shot execution style in a theater and there is no response from the hundreds remaining inside it makes me wonder just a bit...



When the Dubrovka Theater and Beslan School were taken similarly by Chechen assholes, it took Spetsnaz to sort things out. It wasn't pretty.

It is hard to convey to a civilian how violent and effective your basic grenade can be, and Generals in the Great War took your position regarding the effectiveness of storming automatic weapons, to the detriment of those tasked to do so.

A few skilled practitioners with Kalashnikovs in commanding positions are as compelling as Maxims against No Man's Land.

Limiting the death toll to less than 100 in a venue with over 1,000 in attendance was no small feat.

The French security forces are the Varsity, and when taking French hostages on French soil, one's life expectancy may be conveniently measured in minutes.


BSBD,

Winsor

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10 years we were told that billions were being spent to train the Iraqi army. When the Iraqi army "Stood up" we would stand down. The Iraqi army was, is and will always be a joke. The only units of the Iraqi army that are worth a shit, are the units being led by Iranian officers.


http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2015/10/iraqi-army-shiite-militias-report-success-in-baiji.php

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I'm on an iPhone, so quoting is impossible. But this is exactly true. No one was against our going into Afghanistan. And virtually no one was for our going into Iraq. The coalition of the willing was sometimes only barely willing.

No one ever wins wars in Afghanistan. But that was where the declared enemy were. Ie they declared they were enemy; it's kind of tacky to one-sidedly declare someone who isn't seriously messing with you to be your enemy and then attack them. Just being assholes isn't enough; kind of like your neighbor being an asshole isn't enough to sue or punch him. But if he runs over your dog on purpose, or kills your tree, or something like that, well then you sue him. Even in America, you don't just go shoot him for those offenses :)

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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mistercwood

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hell, has there even BEEN any sort of official confirmation of the motive for these attacks??



Would it make you feel better about it if these people had a reason?

My point was that the poster to whom I was responding was already calling for the deportation of Muslims, without any Muslim group claiming responsibility nor any official word that this was an act of Islamic extremism. It was knee-jerk bigotry, and I was calling it out.

And I'm annoyed I'm having to explain this, you're smart enough to not need that.

Well I believe ISIS has claimed responsibility...therefore the proper Knee-Jerk reaction should be deportation of those that have expressed Radical views. Take the PC out of it and do what is in the best interest of the Nation.

Man I'm telling you, the PC brainwashing in this crowd...:S

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Ok, which radical views, and where? Are you talking about college seminars, or within churches or mosques? How old should someone be before they're summarily ejected? Past adolescence? (I at least said some stupid stuff when an adolescent). And do they get due process?

It's funny how knee-jerk reactions are OK when they jibe with ones own convictions, and they're knee-jerk reactions when they don't :)
Personally I think that the U.S. would be damaged more by a return to the fear of the McCarthy era than by even terrorist attacks on our soil.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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Channman

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hell, has there even BEEN any sort of official confirmation of the motive for these attacks??



Would it make you feel better about it if these people had a reason?

My point was that the poster to whom I was responding was already calling for the deportation of Muslims, without any Muslim group claiming responsibility nor any official word that this was an act of Islamic extremism. It was knee-jerk bigotry, and I was calling it out.

And I'm annoyed I'm having to explain this, you're smart enough to not need that.

Well I believe ISIS has claimed responsibility...therefore the proper Knee-Jerk reaction should be deportation of those that have expressed Radical views. Take the PC out of it and do what is in the best interest of the Nation.

Man I'm telling you, the PC brainwashing in this crowd...:S

If this is a typical week in America, by Friday of this week we will have lost more people to gun violence in the USA than were killed last week in France. Yet the same people who call out for a violent US response to ISIS are the ones who steadfastly oppose doing anything about gun violence at home.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Shooting at someone wearing a TATP suicide vest may not be the smartest thing to do.

The counter-terrorism center says TATP “can be very unstable and sensitive to heat, shock, and friction.”
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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kallend


If this is a typical week in America, by Friday of this week we will have lost more people to gun violence in the USA than were killed last week in France. Yet the same people who call out for a violent US response to ISIS are the ones who steadfastly oppose doing anything about gun violence at home.



Some are calling for assistance from the National Guard:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-chiraq-national-guard-perspec-0702-20150701-story.html
Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

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In order to defeat an enemy you need to understand them.

This article is the best I've seen on that subject. It is long but worth a read if you are really interested in this subject.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/


My Cliff Note summary is they see themselves as an agent to bring about the apocalypse, which is something they want. This ideology makes them different than al-Qaeda, which perceived those events as happening in the far future. ISIS perceives/wants them to happen now.

Two key thing that stood out in the article are:

#1) Unlike al-Qaede (which can go underground) they require territory to create the caliphate, which hard-liners believe all muslims are required to immigrate too and help expand.

#2) They attach great importance to the Syrian city of Dabiq, near Aleppo. A major battle here with either a western "Rome" power, or Turkey (depending on the interpretation) will signal the start of the apocalypse to these hard-liners.

This from article
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Western media frequently miss references to Dabiq in the Islamic State’s videos, and focus instead on lurid scenes of beheading. “Here we are, burying the first American crusader in Dabiq, eagerly waiting for the remainder of your armies to arrive,” said a masked executioner in a November video, showing the severed head of Peter Kassig,


The conclusion of the article is to "not" give them what they want, since sending those signal would increase recruitment. Their propagandists drool with anticipation of this event, and constantly imply that it will come soon.


The article implies our "best bad option" is to deny them the propaganda that they want and to instead wear ISIS down they way we are doing it. Over time people will perceive them as a failed state, just like all the others in the area and recruitment will dry up, resentment from the tribes in the territory they control increase and they will slowly lose territory. Once their territory is gone according to their ideology ISIS's reason for being goes away.


I'm not sure I believe this conclusion, but it is something worth thinking about.

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This paragraph from the article fascinates me.

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After its battle in Dabiq, Cerantonio said, the caliphate will expand and sack Istanbul. Some believe it will then cover the entire Earth, but Cerantonio suggested its tide may never reach beyond the Bosporus. An anti-Messiah, known in Muslim apocalyptic literature as Dajjal, will come from the Khorasan region of eastern Iran and kill a vast number of the caliphate’s fighters, until just 5,000 remain, cornered in Jerusalem. Just as Dajjal prepares to finish them off, Jesus—the second-most-revered prophet in Islam—will return to Earth, spear Dajjal, and lead the Muslims to victory.



Jesus comes back to lead the Muslims to victory in Jerusalem. Wow, I'm floored.

An interesting article to find would be to see the differences between the Islam and Christian versions of the apocalypse.

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Not only did the apologists and sympathizers come out of the woodwork with their pseudo Stockholm Syndrome,



Who?

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but everything once again degenerates into it's all Bush's fault.



Who said that?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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Iago

Well, that didn't take long.

Not only did the apologists and sympathizers come out of the woodwork with their pseudo Stockholm Syndrome, but everything once again degenerates into it's all Bush's fault.

At least we've established who's who's and we know where everyone stands.

La Fin.



Well, the biggest problem with the whole situation is that it largely is a result of the destabilization of Iraq. By the Bush admin.

It's impossible to say what would be the current state of affairs if we hadn't invaded in 03, but it's pretty clear that the predictions of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al were completely and totally wrong.

The idea that "the oppressed" would rise up and form a democratic, humane, stable government was a joke. But anyone who opposed that idea was quickly shouted down.

The idea that anyone associated with the old regime had to be kept out of any role in the new one was idiotic. That had the dual effect of making sure the new government had practically zero experience running a country and creating a large population of angry, former leaders who want to be back in power.

But, back in June of 03, Rumsfeld called those people "dead enders" and predicted a quick end to the insurgency. At the time, US casualties numbered less than 200 dead.

That turned out to be just a little bit inaccurate.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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Iago

Well, that didn't take long.

Not only did the apologists and sympathizers come out of the woodwork with their pseudo Stockholm Syndrome, but everything once again degenerates into it's all Bush's fault.



Who selected Cheney to be his VP?

Who selected Rumsfeld?

Who fed bad intel to Congress and the American people?

Who appointed Bremer?

Whose hand picked PM was al Maliki?

Every one of those choices contributed in a major way to the current mess. Sure there are other contributors to said mess, but one person stands out above all the others/
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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