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jgoose71

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Despite your 500 word essay on how guns work, accidental discharges happen fairly often in the US. Sometimes people get shot; sometimes not.

This is juvenile to continually pick one small aspect to rebut, yet never acknowledge you have a gun problem. How about the great security measures of hiding a gun in drawer wrapped in a towel or on top of refrigerator wrapped in a t-shirt; with that level of foresight nothing will ever go wrong.
"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

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In the military, negligent discharges carry a pretty severe punishment, so before the proverbial crucifixion, there is a forensic investigation done on the weapon in question to determine if there was any type of defect that could have caused the gun to malfunction. Their is also an investigation of the individual and witness statements and everything. I've heard some amazing excuses of how these guns have magically "went off", but typically, (this most often happens at the clearing barrels) it is attributed to improper clearing procedures or putting a finger on the trigger thinking it is on "safe" when it rubbed against your kit and was switched to "fire".

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kallend

******Just in the past few weeks, there have been several instances of guns being dropped or falling out of bags and discharging - Google it yourself.



This is rubbish. The gun control act of 1968 made drop-safety testing mandatory for all gun manufacturers. I can take a loaded handgun and skip it across a parking lot and it wouldn't fire. In addition to the hammer or striker being knocked loose, the trigger has to be depressed to allow the hammer or striker to contact the firing pin.

Sure.

www.rawstory.com/2015/10/8-year-old-georgia-girl-fatally-shot-when-mom-drops-gun-while-braiding-childs-hair/


www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/blog/bs-md-ci-penn-north-gun-arrest-20150505-story.html

denver.cbslocal.com/2015/06/25/gun-goes-off-after-woman-drops-purse-in-whole-foods/

www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2015/10/2_injured_in_accidental_shooti.html

www.good4utah.com/news/local-wasatch-front-/a-gun-is-accidentally-discharged-inside-a-chipotle-in-sandy-gun-owner-not-cited

I can't believe you wrote this right after your "Unbelievably stupid" comment above. This is the exact type of post I was talking about when I wrote "Guns are going to jump up and gitch'a!!!!" Just can't help yourself, can you?

****Bonus content where I finish the argument to save time****

Kallend- "I wasn't saying guns will jump up and get you, just that accidental discharges are common."

Jgoose- "Your post could also be taken to say that if you own a gun you will probably shoot yourself or an innocent by stander. This is the fear that liberals are trying to ingrain into the general public about guns"

Kallend- "That was not the intent of my post. Your putting words in my mouth. I was countering his argument. It's not my fault if someone takes my comments out of context."

Jgoose- "You realize there is a difference between intent and actual effect right?"

At this point the argument will probably fizzle out because Kallend is never wrong and refuses to see how his post could be taken in different ways. He will probably also throw in a couple round about insults that skirt edge of the rules of SC....:P

How close am I?:ph34r:
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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RMK

Despite your 500 word essay on how guns work, accidental discharges happen fairly often in the US. Sometimes people get shot; sometimes not.

This is juvenile to continually pick one small aspect to rebut, yet never acknowledge you have a gun problem. How about the great security measures of hiding a gun in drawer wrapped in a towel or on top of refrigerator wrapped in a t-shirt; with that level of foresight nothing will ever go wrong.



You're right. There are instances of crime, negligence, suicides, and accidents with guns. I personally don't see it as a "gun problem", but rather a "crime, negligence, suicide, and safety problem". That is all I'm saying.

I watch these arguments go back and forth and it seems like guns are attacked and defended by way of mute points. No one ever really talks about the underlying problem.

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RopeaDope

***Despite your 500 word essay on how guns work, accidental discharges happen fairly often in the US. Sometimes people get shot; sometimes not.

This is juvenile to continually pick one small aspect to rebut, yet never acknowledge you have a gun problem. How about the great security measures of hiding a gun in drawer wrapped in a towel or on top of refrigerator wrapped in a t-shirt; with that level of foresight nothing will ever go wrong.



You're right. There are instances of crime, negligence, suicides, and accidents with guns. I personally don't see it as a "gun problem", but rather a "crime, negligence, suicide, and safety problem". That is all I'm saying.

I watch these arguments go back and forth and it seems like guns are attacked and defended by way of mute points. No one ever really talks about the underlying problem.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

The problem is anti-gun folk will never be able to talk about the underlying problem. Their fear of guns will never allow them to get that far. That's why I started this thread. I would like to see this fear addressed so we can have a meaningful discussion.

What do you think the odds of that happening are?
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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>IF YOU BUY A GUN YOU'RE GOING TO DIE!

IF YOU BUY A SMALL VELOCITY AT 100 JUMPS YOU ARE GOING TO DIE!
IF YOU USE A CAMERA AT 25 JUMPS YOU ARE GOING TO DIE!

(We hear that all the time on the other forums here, from people who mock the risk of such things)

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billvon

>IF YOU BUY A GUN YOU'RE GOING TO DIE!

IF YOU BUY A SMALL VELOCITY AT 100 JUMPS YOU ARE GOING TO DIE!
IF YOU USE A CAMERA AT 25 JUMPS YOU ARE GOING TO DIE!

(We hear that all the time on the other forums here, from people who mock the risk of such things)



Difference being in the other forums you know the person is the problem. You have a rational discussion and come up with a plan that is safe.

When in comes to guns, well, the guns is the problem. Ban it. It's hard to have a rational discussion with someone suffering from an irrational fear of an inanimate object.
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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billvon

>IF YOU BUY A GUN YOU'RE GOING TO DIE!

IF YOU BUY A SMALL VELOCITY AT 100 JUMPS YOU ARE GOING TO DIE!
IF YOU USE A CAMERA AT 25 JUMPS YOU ARE GOING TO DIE!

(We hear that all the time on the other forums here, from people who mock the risk of such things)



From what I would try to claim as an objective point of view, all though I am a gun owner, the small Velo and 25 jump videographer are immediately recognized as the problem when they are involved in a skydiving accident.

It is frustrating that our safety record takes a ding because someone thought they hath skillz of madness, but when blame their judgement and use them as examples to warn and educate other.

We don't immediately start discussing whether we should ban X-braced canopies, or sub 100 canopies, or ban all cameras in skydiving.

When it comes to gun incidents, that's exactly what happens though. I think people would have less opposition to guns, if they had a better understanding of existing gun laws, a better understanding of the way guns work mechanically, and a better understanding of the issues that lead someone to pick up a gun and shoot themselves or someone else.

Unfortunately, people who don't like guns don't want to learn more about them, they just want them gone. If it isn't something you need or want, then who cares? Get rid of it and maybe it will help, maybe not.

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>Difference being in the other forums you know the person is the problem. You
>have a rational discussion and come up with a plan that is safe.

Well, generally you don't. The person who wants to jump the small canopy/camera then starts listing all the reasons it's a good idea:

"Small canopies penetrate better and they are more stable"
"Cameras can improve my flying so they make me safer"
"If I am on a long spot flying into the wind over the ocean a small canopy can save my life"
"I saw XXX do it; how hard can it be?"
"I have natural skills, not like everyone else."
"I won't get distracted or turn at the last minute like an idiot."

Then they see one person in the thread say something like "If you jump a smaller canopy make sure you XXX" And even if the thread is 200 posts long, all they take away from it is that one post - "I talked to someone and they said I would be fine as long as I XXX."

Similar to here, except that the very first thing that anyone says when someone suggests guns are dangerous is "WHY DO YOU WANT TO BAN GUNS?" End of conversation. You don't even get to the point where they list all the reasons a gun makes them safer, or they are not like everyone else, or they are naturals.

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billvon

>Difference being in the other forums you know the person is the problem. You
>have a rational discussion and come up with a plan that is safe.

Well, generally you don't. The person who wants to jump the small canopy/camera then starts listing all the reasons it's a good idea:

"Small canopies penetrate better and they are more stable"
"Cameras can improve my flying so they make me safer"
"If I am on a long spot flying into the wind over the ocean a small canopy can save my life"
"I saw XXX do it; how hard can it be?"
"I have natural skills, not like everyone else."
"I won't get distracted or turn at the last minute like an idiot."

Then they see one person in the thread say something like "If you jump a smaller canopy make sure you XXX" And even if the thread is 200 posts long, all they take away from it is that one post - "I talked to someone and they said I would be fine as long as I XXX."

Similar to here, except that the very first thing that anyone says when someone suggests guns are dangerous is "WHY DO YOU WANT TO BAN GUNS?" End of conversation. You don't even get to the point where they list all the reasons a gun makes them safer, or they are not like everyone else, or they are naturals.



In both cases both conversations are driven by emotions. One is fear and the other is excitement/desire.

Either way it never ends good. The problem with the gun debate is not only are you dealing with fear, but you also have a mob mentality to deal with also. This conversation would have been a lot easier 60 years ago before the Democratic party started teaching fear of firearms.
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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RopeaDope

***Just in the past few weeks, there have been several instances of guns being dropped or falling out of bags and discharging - Google it yourself.



This is rubbish. The gun control act of 1968 made drop-safety testing mandatory for all gun manufacturers. I can take a loaded handgun and skip it across a parking lot and it wouldn't fire. In addition to the hammer or striker being knocked loose, the trigger has to be depressed to allow the hammer or striker to contact the firing pin.

What about long guns?

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jgoose71

*********Just in the past few weeks, there have been several instances of guns being dropped or falling out of bags and discharging - Google it yourself.



This is rubbish. The gun control act of 1968 made drop-safety testing mandatory for all gun manufacturers. I can take a loaded handgun and skip it across a parking lot and it wouldn't fire. In addition to the hammer or striker being knocked loose, the trigger has to be depressed to allow the hammer or striker to contact the firing pin.

Sure.

www.rawstory.com/2015/10/8-year-old-georgia-girl-fatally-shot-when-mom-drops-gun-while-braiding-childs-hair/


www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/blog/bs-md-ci-penn-north-gun-arrest-20150505-story.html

denver.cbslocal.com/2015/06/25/gun-goes-off-after-woman-drops-purse-in-whole-foods/

www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2015/10/2_injured_in_accidental_shooti.html

www.good4utah.com/news/local-wasatch-front-/a-gun-is-accidentally-discharged-inside-a-chipotle-in-sandy-gun-owner-not-cited

I can't believe you wrote this right after your "Unbelievably stupid" comment above. This is the exact type of post I was talking about when I wrote "Guns are going to jump up and gitch'a!!!!" Just can't help yourself, can you?

****Bonus content where I finish the argument to save time****

Kallend- "I wasn't saying guns will jump up and get you, just that accidental discharges are common."

Jgoose- "Your post could also be taken to say that if you own a gun you will probably shoot yourself or an innocent by stander. This is the fear that liberals are trying to ingrain into the general public about guns"

Kallend- "That was not the intent of my post. Your putting words in my mouth. I was countering his argument. It's not my fault if someone takes my comments out of context."

Jgoose- "You realize there is a difference between intent and actual effect right?"

At this point the argument will probably fizzle out because Kallend is never wrong and refuses to see how his post could be taken in different ways. He will probably also throw in a couple round about insults that skirt edge of the rules of SC....:P

How close am I?:ph34r:

If your aim is no better than that when shooting, you should take up bowling instead.

I provided links to a bunch of news articles in which it is reported that guns discharged on being dropped, and the investigating police agreed. Your ridiculous "conversation" and ropeadope's silly essay are just the kind of excuses I'd expect from you.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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cruelpops

On Saturday a drunken idiot killed people and injure another 40+ people in Stillwater, OK including a TODDLER. Why isn't anyone talking about banning cars or alcohol?



See the title of this thread.

YOU are quite capable of starting a thread on cars and alcohol.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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cruelpops

On Saturday a drunken idiot killed people and injure another 40+ people in Stillwater, OK including a TODDLER. Why isn't anyone talking about banning cars or alcohol?



It goes back to fear. Just about everybody has a car and nobody fears them.

Once you understand that a lot of the gun rules and regulations along with attempts to ban guns is not rational and it's all fear based you are able to cut through a lot of the arguments.

#carryeverywhere along with a lot of the open carry movements are designed to start addressing those fears. If people could have a debate without all the fear and other emotions, I think answers will finally start to come forward.

But for many reasons, Democrats will never let that happen. They will continue to promote how dangerous firearms are, continue to push for more regulations/bans, and continue to get the public to voluntarily disarm themselves because they will never be able to over turn the 2nd Amendment.
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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kallend

************Just in the past few weeks, there have been several instances of guns being dropped or falling out of bags and discharging - Google it yourself.



This is rubbish. The gun control act of 1968 made drop-safety testing mandatory for all gun manufacturers. I can take a loaded handgun and skip it across a parking lot and it wouldn't fire. In addition to the hammer or striker being knocked loose, the trigger has to be depressed to allow the hammer or striker to contact the firing pin.

Sure.

www.rawstory.com/2015/10/8-year-old-georgia-girl-fatally-shot-when-mom-drops-gun-while-braiding-childs-hair/


www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/blog/bs-md-ci-penn-north-gun-arrest-20150505-story.html

denver.cbslocal.com/2015/06/25/gun-goes-off-after-woman-drops-purse-in-whole-foods/

www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2015/10/2_injured_in_accidental_shooti.html

www.good4utah.com/news/local-wasatch-front-/a-gun-is-accidentally-discharged-inside-a-chipotle-in-sandy-gun-owner-not-cited

I can't believe you wrote this right after your "Unbelievably stupid" comment above. This is the exact type of post I was talking about when I wrote "Guns are going to jump up and gitch'a!!!!" Just can't help yourself, can you?

****Bonus content where I finish the argument to save time****

Kallend- "I wasn't saying guns will jump up and get you, just that accidental discharges are common."

Jgoose- "Your post could also be taken to say that if you own a gun you will probably shoot yourself or an innocent by stander. This is the fear that liberals are trying to ingrain into the general public about guns"

Kallend- "That was not the intent of my post. Your putting words in my mouth. I was countering his argument. It's not my fault if someone takes my comments out of context."

Jgoose- "You realize there is a difference between intent and actual effect right?"

At this point the argument will probably fizzle out because Kallend is never wrong and refuses to see how his post could be taken in different ways. He will probably also throw in a couple round about insults that skirt edge of the rules of SC....:P

How close am I?:ph34r:

If your aim is no better than that when shooting, you should take up bowling instead.

I provided links to a bunch of news articles in which it is reported that guns discharged on being dropped, and the investigating police agreed. Your ridiculous "conversation" and ropeadope's silly essay are just the kind of excuses I'd expect from you.

Well, your reply didn't question anything I posted and you got straight to the round-about insult, so I would say I did pretty good....;)
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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Quote

The problem is anti-gun folk will never be able to talk about the underlying problem.



bullshit, the gun control lobby talks about ALL the issues, not just the gun. where are you getting your information from exactly? Fox or the NRA or something like that?

The gun IS part of the issue so we talk about that too. and we talk about a thousand other things as well.

How about this....the gun lobby REFUSES to acknowledge that the gun is part of the problem and attempts to place the blame on EVERYTHING BUT the gun.

that is just as valid.

from a common sense gun law website:
Quote


• We must close loopholes such as buying a weapon at a gun show!
• We must ban the purchase of firearms and ammunition on the internet!
• We must increase the waiting period and make background checks more rigorous and effective!
• We must limit the number of firearms any individual can own!
• We must limit the number of bullets any firearm clip can hold!
• We must ban and criminalize the purchase and possession of armor piercing bullets, and also hollow-tip bullets!
• We must rethink the "logic" of permitting concealed weapons, especially in places like houses of worship, colleges, bars, restaurants, and political rallies!
• We must interface all data bases monitoring firearm ownership to assess the firearm-owning population more accurately and effectively!



some of these are about the 'gun' most are not. Most are about the people and the ways that guns are obtained, handled and used.

get over yourself.....really. so narrow mindedly focused on only one thing.....untilt hat changes and then you jump to the next thing.....which is it?

Are you OK with 8 year olds shooting 11 year olds? Yes or no?

now are you willing to do ANYTHING (and I mean anything) about that?

probably not. so therefore your are in fact tacitly OK with 8 year olds shooting 11 year olds. You judge yourself by your intentions and your ideology. Others judge you by your actions and/or lack of actions.

I am for some action. I am sick of the talk. something has to change. we CAN do better. we REFUSE to do anything.

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>Once you understand that a lot of the gun rules and regulations along with
>attempts to ban guns is not rational and it's all fear based you are able to cut
>through a lot of the arguments.

Yep. And people who try to talk newbies out of jumping tiny canopies are just talent-less hacks who can't handle high speeds like the newbies can.

Claiming that someone holds a position because they are afraid, or have no skill, or just aren't all that bright, is an age-old (and sad) angle that people with no other arguments use.

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The tendency of some strong proponents of a liberal interpretation of the second amendment tend to respond to every statement by someone who thinks some limitations are in order as "banning guns."
Guns by themselves are not a problem. However, they tend to be used by people, and people seem to have some inconsistent and/or nonsensical reasons for their use. Their easy availability seems to make them a go-to tool for some people, for all the same reasons that there are stripped nuts all over the place when people used pliers, or damage from using a hammer for one hard rap when two smaller ones would have been better.
I'd be all over a three-pronged approach that includes:
  • Universal gun safety education, along with universal civics, health/sex, and financial education. They're not four separate classes, they're all part of a single "responsibilities of adulthood" class
  • Passive trigger locks being sold with all guns as the default. They can be bought without them, it's just the default. Kind of like how all medicines are sold by default with childproof caps, but you can request non-childproof at no additional cost
  • Additional education and background check consistent with concealed carry classes in most states in order to get a card authorizing you to buy guns. No additional registration, and a lot of trust involved in this one, but, well, that's true for concealed carry, too. If your dad or mom gives you a gun, that's different.

    So now you can call me a gun-banner, too. Won't make it the truth, but such is life.

    Wendy P.
    There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
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    tkhayes


    • We must close loopholes such as buying a weapon at a gun show!
    • We must ban the purchase of firearms and ammunition on the internet!
    • We must increase the waiting period and make background checks more rigorous and effective!
    • We must limit the number of firearms any individual can own!
    • We must limit the number of bullets any firearm clip can hold!
    • We must ban and criminalize the purchase and possession of armor piercing bullets, and also hollow-tip bullets!
    • We must rethink the "logic" of permitting concealed weapons, especially in places like houses of worship, colleges, bars, restaurants, and political rallies!
    • We must interface all data bases monitoring firearm ownership to assess the firearm-owning population more accurately and effectively!



    I think you are flustered due to some misinformation. I see your views on gun control, and something needs to be done about violence and suicide, but you think these problems come from, "gun issues", that don't actually exist.

    ~There is no loophole to buy guns at gun shows. All federal and state laws apply, including any licensed dealer being required to do background checks. Fact
    ~If you purchase a firearm online, it gets shipped to the FFL of your choice, where you go pick it up, after completing all the paperwork and a background check just like if you bought it from the store. All state and federal laws still apply to that purchase. Fact
    ~If you purchase ammo online, you must show proof of age, usually by emailing or faxing a copy of your drivers license. You have to be 18 to buy shotgun shells and 21 to buy pistol and riffle ammo. All state and federal laws apply. If your state requires a card to purchase pistol ammo, you have to email them a copy of your card. Fact
    ~I don't understand what waiting period you are referring to, but the background check is an FBI record check. It doesn't get much more rigorous than that. Opinion
    ~The number of firearms any one person owns is irrelevant. You can effectively use one at a time. Have 50 would not make someone more dangerous than having one or two. Opinion, logic based
    ~Limiting the magazine capacity is pure opinion based argument. With a couple hours of practice, you can get a good reload drill down so having five 10 round magazines makes you more leather than someone else with two 30 round mags. Also, high capacity magazines are almost never used in crimes. Adam Lanza used 30 round magazines, but he was firing between 5-15 shots and then reloading anyways leaving half loaded magazines laying around. James Holmes used a 100 round drum (you can have those, they are not necessary at all) but luckily, those drums are very unreliable and his gun jammed do to a failure to feed from the drum which is what ended his shooting spree. Opinion
    ~Armor piercing bullets are already banned and you go to jail for possessing them. Hollow points sound scary, but they are made for a specific reason (self defense). If you knew the internal ballistics of hollow points and round nosed bullets, you would understand. A hollow point goes in, transfers all its energy to the target (knock down power). One shot will shot an attack by putting the attacker on his ass with a survivable wound. A round nosed bullet goes in and ricochets off bones and tumbles around causing horrendous wound tacks and then passes out the other side and hits he person behind you. Fact
    ~Concealed carry is not permitted in "bars" but the most recent high profile shooting sprees have been at a church, a college, and a political rally (Gabby Giffords) Fact
    ~The last one is the one the NRA will fight the hardest. That is registration, and a prelude to confiscation. Opinion, but I think most will agree that the NRA will absolutely oppose this one and on this basis

    -Allow me to add the disclaimer, I'm with you on recognizing a problem with violence, suicides, and accidents. I'm with you on things need to change. Some gun laws can be touched up on to help prevent straw purchases for instance, but the wide sweeping gun control hat people often rally for, in my opinion, is unfounded do to it is seeking to outlaw things that don't exist, or are already illegal, or restrict people for no reason whatsoever, without any benefit of quelling any of the problems we are fighting in the first place.

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    I was not 'advocating this as a solution' so you do not need to debnk or refute anything.....I was refuting the claim that the gun control lobby ONLY focuses on the gun.

    that is patently false .

    As for the gun show 'loophole' - the loophole is not 'wther or not all laws apply' it is that the laws are flawed and easy to get around. People buys guns at guns show without background checks all the time.

    vast majority of Americans want an expanded background check, and enforcement of background checks for ALL gun sales, public, private, gun shows and so on.

    When i sell my gun provately to someone who then uses it to rob a store because there was no background check is in fact, me 'following the laws' but the law itself it obviously flawed if te criminal got the gun so easily.

    it is simply 'obtuse' to deny that there is no 'loophole'. If there is no loophole then who is manufacturing and supplying the guns to felons?

    jut one example. EVERYONE wants explanded background checks (pretty much) - why is it not happening in a supposed representative democracy?

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    RMK

    I'm not your research assistant. If you can't easily find examples; you're purposefully not trying.



    Or they are not there and you are lying!
    "America will never be destroyed from the outside,
    if we falter and lose our freedoms,
    it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
    Abraham Lincoln

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