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NewGuy2005

School Shooting - Northern Arizona

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normiss

I have yet to see a mass killing from one person using cars to kill on school grounds.
Comparing murders to deaths is weak.



That is because you aren't looking. And it isn't politically charged enough to be an issue.

Why don't you care about school kids being killed? Why do you dismiss them, as if they don't matter?

https://www.google.com/?client=safari&channel=ipad_bm#channel=ipad_bm&q=vehicular+homicide+at+school
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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rushmc

*********

Quote

If in a slide, it has nothing to do with having guns



So Americans just have a higher rate of mental illness and a lower ability to control impulses than the rest of the civilized world?



Why do you care?

You don't live here

Have to travel there.

Now, care to answer the question?

You do not have to travel anywhere
But you must feel safe or you would stop
Anyway

Your point of view and opinions come from a flawed perception. It is obvious you wish no one had guns.

This will never be the case here

So no, no point in answering a question that comes from a false and leaning perspective.

Weaseling as usual.

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normiss

Your number for mass killing is different to say the least.



That's interesting.

So your reply is that my numbers are smaller, and gun massacre is bigger.

Wasn't it just a few posts back I was being criticized for saying we should ignore the smaller numbers?

And here you are that we should pay no mind to those deaths, or murders, and concentrate on the ones you want to focus on.

Very interesting.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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normiss

Don't break your arm twisting my words.
:P



I'm still waiting for someone to show me where I stated that gun shot victims don't matter as much as other victims. At least 2 individuals here claim I made that statement. I just want them to prove it.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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tkhayes

I get pretty tired of people nay-saying, attacking individuals, asking what they would do, then picking that apart, going from mass-shootings to gang shooting to individual shootings to mental illness and such.

First you either ACCEPT that the gun violence in this country is a problem and then we decide collectively to try and improve it, or you DENY that gun violence is a problem in this country in which case, you are OK with the tens of thousands of people that die at the hands of guns every year.



No, I don't have to do one of those two things, and I'm not going to.

Gun violence in this country is not a (emphasis: singular) problem. Children getting their hands on firearms and hurting others and themselves is a problem. People shooting each others when drug deals go bad is a problem. Jilted lovers murdering their ex at their place of work and injuring other people in the process is a problem. People with CCWs deciding to be vigilantes and shooting bystanders is a problem. People committing suicide with firearms is a problem. People flipping out and going on shooting sprees (intentionally trying to distinguish this from toxic arguments about the term "mass shooting") is a problem.

The distinction is important because neither the scope of these problems nor the kinds of steps we can take to try to help some of them even remotely resemble one another.

Banning high capacity magazines absolutely will not do shit to prevent firearm suicides. Waiting periods will not do shit to prevent toddlers from finding guns and hurting themselves. Assault weapon bans and trigger locks aren't going to do shit to prevent gang or drug related gun violence. Making CCW permits harder or nearly impossible to get isn't going to do shit to stop shooting sprees nor jilted lovers.

You are demanding that totally distinct issues be conflated so that we can "get to the other side of the argument" where people trot out ideas with no deference to a cost/benefit analysis but only to the fact that "hey, at least it's something, and gun violence, the homogeneous blob that it is, is something we've agreed is a problem... no takebacks."

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champu

***I get pretty tired of people nay-saying, attacking individuals, asking what they would do, then picking that apart, going from mass-shootings to gang shooting to individual shootings to mental illness and such.

First you either ACCEPT that the gun violence in this country is a problem and then we decide collectively to try and improve it, or you DENY that gun violence is a problem in this country in which case, you are OK with the tens of thousands of people that die at the hands of guns every year.



No, I don't have to do one of those two things, and I'm not going to.

Gun violence in this country is not a (emphasis: singular) problem. Children getting their hands on firearms and hurting others and themselves is a problem. People shooting each others when drug deals go bad is a problem. Jilted lovers murdering their ex at their place of work and injuring other people in the process is a problem. People with CCWs deciding to be vigilantes and shooting bystanders is a problem. People committing suicide with firearms is a problem. People flipping out and going on shooting sprees (intentionally trying to distinguish this from toxic arguments about the term "mass shooting") is a problem.

The distinction is important because neither the scope of these problems nor the kinds of steps we can take to try to help some of them even remotely resemble one another.

Banning high capacity magazines absolutely will not do shit to prevent firearm suicides. Waiting periods will not do shit to prevent toddlers from finding guns and hurting themselves. Assault weapon bans and trigger locks aren't going to do shit to prevent gang or drug related gun violence. Making CCW permits harder or nearly impossible to get isn't going to do shit to stop shooting sprees nor jilted lovers.

You are demanding that totally distinct issues be conflated so that we can "get to the other side of the argument" where people trot out ideas with no deference to a cost/benefit analysis but only to the fact that "hey, at least it's something, and gun violence, the homogeneous blob that it is, is something we've agreed is a problem... no takebacks."

Very well said.

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champu

***I get pretty tired of people nay-saying, attacking individuals, asking what they would do, then picking that apart, going from mass-shootings to gang shooting to individual shootings to mental illness and such.

First you either ACCEPT that the gun violence in this country is a problem and then we decide collectively to try and improve it, or you DENY that gun violence is a problem in this country in which case, you are OK with the tens of thousands of people that die at the hands of guns every year.



No, I don't have to do one of those two things, and I'm not going to.

Gun violence in this country is not a (emphasis: singular) problem. Children getting their hands on firearms and hurting others and themselves is a problem. People shooting each others when drug deals go bad is a problem. Jilted lovers murdering their ex at their place of work and injuring other people in the process is a problem. People with CCWs deciding to be vigilantes and shooting bystanders is a problem. People committing suicide with firearms is a problem. People flipping out and going on shooting sprees (intentionally trying to distinguish this from toxic arguments about the term "mass shooting") is a problem.

The distinction is important because neither the scope of these problems nor the kinds of steps we can take to try to help some of them even remotely resemble one another.

Banning high capacity magazines absolutely will not do shit to prevent firearm suicides. Waiting periods will not do shit to prevent toddlers from finding guns and hurting themselves. Assault weapon bans and trigger locks aren't going to do shit to prevent gang or drug related gun violence. Making CCW permits harder or nearly impossible to get isn't going to do shit to stop shooting sprees nor jilted lovers.

You are demanding that totally distinct issues be conflated so that we can "get to the other side of the argument" where people trot out ideas with no deference to a cost/benefit analysis but only to the fact that "hey, at least it's something, and gun violence, the homogeneous blob that it is, is something we've agreed is a problem... no takebacks."

Best post of the thread
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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Quote

Gun violence in this country is not a (emphasis: singular) problem. Children getting their hands on firearms and hurting others and themselves is a problem. People shooting each others when drug deals go bad is a problem. Jilted lovers murdering their ex at their place of work and injuring other people in the process is a problem. People with CCWs deciding to be vigilantes and shooting bystanders is a problem. People committing suicide with firearms is a problem. People flipping out and going on shooting sprees (intentionally trying to distinguish this from toxic arguments about the term "mass shooting") is a problem.



They are indeed all a problem and every other 1st world country has those same problems.

However, those problems in the US are bigger than in those other 1st world countries. They are bigger, because it is so easy to get your hands on guns in the US.

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It's not a controlled "experiment" though. Gun control advocates don't want to do one or two or three things, they want to do ten things (...and then ten more things...) and they want to spam those things all at once.

If the tenth thing represents a significant sacrifice to firearm owners and it only maybe (at best) has a chance of helping in already extremely rare scenarios then I'm saying cut the list to nine things and then repeat the exercise.

The act of lumping all firearms injuries and deaths together or lumping all shootings involving 4 or more deaths and injuries into one book and plastering "Sandy Hook" on the cover is dishonest, and it's done specifically to promote the types of chimeric measures I'm talking about.

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It's not a controlled "experiment" though. Gun control advocates don't want to do one or two or three things, they want to do ten things (...and then ten more things...) and they want to spam those things all at once.



I get that....but refusing to define the problem because you are afraid of what the proposed solution might be doesn't help either.

Quite frankly, and I have said this many ties before, I do'nt think there really is a solution that provides any significant benefit within decades if not generations.

That doesn't take away that the easy availability of guns is a significant multiplier of the problem.

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SkyDekker



That doesn't take away that the easy availability of guns is a significant multiplier of the problem.



No

It can have a big impact on the end results

Guns however, do not multiply the problem
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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rushmc

***

That doesn't take away that the easy availability of guns is a significant multiplier of the problem.



No

It can have a big impact on the end results

Guns however, do not multiply the problem

If you define the problem as the large number of people dead, then I disagree with you.

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SkyDekker

******

That doesn't take away that the easy availability of guns is a significant multiplier of the problem.



No

It can have a big impact on the end results

Guns however, do not multiply the problem

If you define the problem as the large number of people dead, then I disagree with you.

That is a result
Not the problem
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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rushmc

*********

That doesn't take away that the easy availability of guns is a significant multiplier of the problem.



No

It can have a big impact on the end results

Guns however, do not multiply the problem

If you define the problem as the large number of people dead, then I disagree with you.

That is a result
Not the problem

So when a hurricane hits we shouldn't deal with all the destruction, since that is the result and not the problem?

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SkyDekker

************

That doesn't take away that the easy availability of guns is a significant multiplier of the problem.



No

It can have a big impact on the end results

Guns however, do not multiply the problem

If you define the problem as the large number of people dead, then I disagree with you.

That is a result
Not the problem

So when a hurricane hits we shouldn't deal with all the destruction, since that is the result and not the problem?

Can you control the hurricane?
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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>So when a hurricane hits we shouldn't deal with all the destruction, since that
>is the result and not the problem?

Exactly. Hurricanes are natural. There is nothing you can do to prepare for them, and if you try, you are a loser lib who wants to ban weather.

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Re-scoping your concern that there are "too many firearm related deaths and injuries [that occur in a wide variety of events]" as one big "it is too easy to get a gun" problem is not something I agree with doing because then your proposed actions are evaluated against whether they make firearm ownership harder instead of whether they make it safer in any kind of reasonably direct and statistically significant fashion.

We could make everyone do 20 pullups and then explain what an eigenvector is before they're allowed to buy a gun. That would make it harder to buy a gun, but that doesn't make it a good or defensible idea. It's a bad way to approach problems.

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champu

Re-scoping your concern that there are "too many firearm related deaths and injuries [that occur in a wide variety of events]" as one big "it is too easy to get a gun" problem is not something I agree with doing because then your proposed actions are evaluated against whether they make firearm ownership harder instead of whether they make it safer in any kind of reasonably direct and statistically significant fashion.

We could make everyone do 20 pullups and then explain what an eigenvector is before they're allowed to buy a gun. That would make it harder to buy a gun, but that doesn't make it a good or defensible idea. It's a bad way to approach problems.



It is too easy to get your hands on a vehicle, and that is why there are so many traffic deaths. It has nothing whatsoever to do with incompetence, ignorance, simple honest mistakes, or making it harder to get car.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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>It is too easy to get your hands on a vehicle, and that is why there are so
>many traffic deaths.

Actually traffic deaths are going down. These are due, in part, to tougher drunk driving laws, laws requiring inspections and vehicle registration, laws requiring licenses (and driver testing) laws requiring retesting of elderly drivers, laws requiring insurance, and a LOT of effort by the NTSB and the NHTSA going into determining causes of traffic fatalities. That research has resulted in new laws requiring design changes in cars, changes in traffic enforcement and changes in highway design.

So that's an example of adding laws that have an overall beneficial effect on safety, and has nothing to do with "BAN CARS!" Indeed, it shows what can happen when an industry is open to improvement.

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champu

We could make everyone do 20 pullups and then explain what an eigenvector is before they're allowed to buy a gun. That would make it harder to buy a gun, but that doesn't make it a good or defensible idea. It's a bad way to approach problems.



Dude - it won't hurt, and it MIGHT help. and we can save just one life.......

PLUS everyone needs to be healthier, so pullups might just save a few lives and reduce the drain on healthcare costs overall.

Plus, think of the boost to the fitness industry when everyone needs to purchase home pullup bars. we can give 'free' ones to those in financial need too - just raise a couple taxes on bigwigs that exploit the workers anyway. they can afford it.

it's a freakin' win win win scenario



now that's what I call forward thinking

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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billvon

>So that's an example of adding laws that have an overall beneficial effect on safety, and has nothing to do with "BAN CARS!" .



don't be silly, we aren't going to ban cars.


anyone that can do the pullups is strong enough to control their steering and avoid most accidents, sheeeesh

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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