Another mass shooting...

[pbwing 0]

jbscout2002

******According to Wikipedia-

"In the Canadian province of Ontario, then-Premier Dalton McGuinty announced a “locked door” policy, as part of a Safe Welcome Program at all elementary schools as of September 2013. About 2,450 elementary schools applied for and received funding from the province to install front-door buzzers and security cameras. Together with the 850 schools that installed them with provincial funding in 2005, the new equipment means about 80 per cent of Ontario’s 4,000 elementary schools will have secured front doors. In the Greater Toronto Area, 1,287 schools received funding through their 12 school boards such as the Toronto Catholic District School Board, Toronto District School Board, Durham Catholic District School Board, and York Region District School Board.

Every Ontario school board is required to have a local police-school board protocol, which includes a lockdown plan that is practised at least twice each year. Professional development and training has been made available to school and board staff, along with their local police services, to put the protocol in place at both the elementary and secondary levels."

I guess our politicians thought this was stupid. Or was deemed to be unworthy of effort, and written off as an effort from the NRA to derail the gun control agenda by providing solutions to the issues which provide a foundation for ultimate goal?

As I recall, the Sandy Hook had exactly such a system in place. Adam Lanza simply shot out the glass door and walked in. But no doubt some will respond that the school is at fault, for not having 12 inch thick steel doors at all entrances, and actually having vulnerable windows an attacker could shoot out and enter. Much safer to build our schools out of solid concrete without windows. Also we should have metal detectors at every entrance, armed guards, windowless steel doors for every classroom that lock automatically when an alarm is sounded, and a 15-foot high solid wall topped with hurricane wire around the entire property. That should be the face of freedom in America. A gun on every hip, and a barricade at every door.

Don

Yeah I guess your right. Maybe it was stupid for Canada to start locking the doors while class was in session.

Actually, Canada didn't start locking its doors. Some schools in Ontario did. It's not a required practice. The government made funds available to schools who wanted to increase security after the Sandy Hook shootings. Completely voluntary. And aside from 2 school shootings in Ontario 40 years ago, I'm not aware of any that have occurred recently or even any that were prevented by this voluntary policy.

In my opinion, the simple fact that firearms are much harder to get (the process for acquiring firearms is significantly more complex) is the largest contribution as to why there haven't been more shootings.

[jtiflyer 0]

jbscout2002

***My thoughts exactly and I don't know if the state is doing rechecks every week, month etc during your CCW permit period to see if it is still valid. There has to be something going on behind the scenes for the federal level to accept this type of authorization.

OK offers a 5 year and 10 year. I think you have to start with the 5, the you can renew with the 10 year. No clue how often, or if they run a check to see if there is a reason to revoke them.

I'm trying to conjur up an idea of a gun permit, just not has difficult to get as a CCW (so people don't fight it and it passes in congress), where you can take a Saturday and pick up a free application at your favorite gun shop. Fill in all your info, stop by Walmart and get a $10 passport photo, then take that to the Sherrifs office and give them $15 to finger print you. Leave them you app, photo, prints, and something like a hunter safety course certificate (but just a gun safety class) and a nominal processing fee. They send it in to your state investigative branch (OSBI, or TBI or whatever) and a couple weeks later you get your card.

Either a separate card or an authorization on your drivers license. The idea is to do this at a state level, but all held to the same federal standard. Some states will have to give a little (NY) and some will have to take a little (TX).

When you buy a gun, rather than a paper application and phone in NICS check, scan your card. Just like your drivers license, any disqualifier will automatically put an electronic hold or revocation on your card. Also at random, Fish and Game officer can see you out hunting and spot check you by calling in your card and seeing if it comes back clear, or if you just spent the weekend in the loony bin and they didn't realize you had a legally obtain gun when you were released.


finally somebody has some possible plans to improve the situation on both sides. Too bad most politicians would not touch this.

[jbscout2002 1]

SkyDekker

Dan, not in reply to you directly, but for all:

I have been wondering, what do those, whom think there should be absolutely no gun-free zones, think of the following scenario:

Take the latest school shooting, but now put this in a scholl which is not a gun free zone. A shooting takes place in a class room and somebody responds, draws his weapon and standing in the door takes aim at the shooter inside the classroom.

At that point, somebody turns the corner, hears the shots and sees somebody standing in the doorway shooting into a classroom.

He draws his weapon and kills, what he thinks is the "bad guy" in the doorway shooting into the classroom.

Should that second person now be charged with murder or manslaughter, or should he/she be cleared of any wrongdoing?

I believe that scenario would come down to a matter of "general intent", similar to the criminal intent element of mens rea.

The way we dumb it down for us Soldiers, is your intentions are judged based on your perception of the situation at the moment you pulled the trigger.

With the threat of car bombs, unfortunately there are situations where a car is advancing toward your position at a high rate of speed and crosses your final fire protective line and in bitter hind sight, realize that the driver was late to work and having a bad day and thought he could just run a checkpoint.

When you have a moral compass that points north, no punishment is necessary. There is a reason that on average 22 veterans commit suicide every day in America.

[jtiflyer 0]

jbscout2002

******I still want to see some offer one rational idea that would prevent gun crime. Everyone screams gun control gun control, but what is your proposed control measure? Can you offer one single control measure that could effectively prevent anything from happening?

How about we do what other countries are doing who don't have this problem? What are they doing differently that causes the stark incredible difference in violent gun death and incidences?

Switzerland. They have it figured out. Per capita, they have the highest rate of gun ownership in Europe, but the lowest rate of gun violence.

There is a culture there of introducing children to guns in a controlled environment and teaching them about shooting and gun safety. Instead of trying to demonize guns, kids start joining gun clubs as young as 12 years old.

Guns are common, available, a major pastime sport, and NORMAL. Here we demonize them. We try to keep hem away from everyone. Some people want one just cause they can't have it.

kind of like sex right?? Europe has much more "open" views on sex while here its very taboo.

[rehmwa 2]

jbscout2002

***My thoughts exactly and I don't know if the state is doing rechecks every week, month etc during your CCW permit period to see if it is still valid. There has to be something going on behind the scenes for the federal level to accept this type of authorization.

OK offers a 5 year and 10 year. I think you have to start with the 5, the you can renew with the 10 year. No clue how often, or if they run a check to see if there is a reason to revoke them.

I'm trying to conjur up an idea of a gun permit, just not has difficult to get as a CCW (so people don't fight it and it passes in congress), where you can take a Saturday and pick up a free application at your favorite gun shop. Fill in all your info, stop by Walmart and get a $10 passport photo, then take that to the Sherrifs office and give them $15 to finger print you. Leave them you app, photo, prints, and something like a hunter safety course certificate (but just a gun safety class) and a nominal processing fee. They send it in to your state investigative branch (OSBI, or TBI or whatever) and a couple weeks later you get your card.

Either a separate card or an authorization on your drivers license. The idea is to do this at a state level, but all held to the same federal standard. Some states will have to give a little (NY) and some will have to take a little (TX).

When you buy a gun, rather than a paper application and phone in NICS check, scan your card. Just like your drivers license, any disqualifier will automatically put an electronic hold or revocation on your card. Also at random, Fish and Game officer can see you out hunting and spot check you by calling in your card and seeing if it comes back clear, or if you just spent the weekend in the loony bin and they didn't realize you had a legally obtain gun when you were released.

this is excellent - lots of people putting forth a "permit to purchase" type of idea. I like the idea of a gun safety course requirement as part of the vetting. the only bother for me is it could be leveraged into a defacto registration. I prefer it to be a blind system - it gives the authorization status (yes or no), but doesn't reverse the info to tell the gov what I purchased. Once I'm cleared to buy, at that point, then my property is not anyone's business.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,380]

Good post overall. Yes, that's the challenge - there's no way to determine what level of "crazy" means someone will pick up a gun and start shooting. I do, however, think we can do a much better job of treating mental illnesses than we do now, and also do a better job of determining who is most at risk for violence.

I find it unfortunate that so many people have fallen for the NRA's rhetoric about how Obama, Pelosi et al wants to "take away everyone's guns." It's as silly as claiming that gun supporters don't care at all about school shootings, and think that any level of violence is acceptable as long as they get to keep their arsenal with zero restrictions. Neither position is valid IMO.

[SkyDekker 1,120]

rehmwa

******My thoughts exactly and I don't know if the state is doing rechecks every week, month etc during your CCW permit period to see if it is still valid. There has to be something going on behind the scenes for the federal level to accept this type of authorization.

OK offers a 5 year and 10 year. I think you have to start with the 5, the you can renew with the 10 year. No clue how often, or if they run a check to see if there is a reason to revoke them.

I'm trying to conjur up an idea of a gun permit, just not has difficult to get as a CCW (so people don't fight it and it passes in congress), where you can take a Saturday and pick up a free application at your favorite gun shop. Fill in all your info, stop by Walmart and get a $10 passport photo, then take that to the Sherrifs office and give them $15 to finger print you. Leave them you app, photo, prints, and something like a hunter safety course certificate (but just a gun safety class) and a nominal processing fee. They send it in to your state investigative branch (OSBI, or TBI or whatever) and a couple weeks later you get your card.

Either a separate card or an authorization on your drivers license. The idea is to do this at a state level, but all held to the same federal standard. Some states will have to give a little (NY) and some will have to take a little (TX).

When you buy a gun, rather than a paper application and phone in NICS check, scan your card. Just like your drivers license, any disqualifier will automatically put an electronic hold or revocation on your card. Also at random, Fish and Game officer can see you out hunting and spot check you by calling in your card and seeing if it comes back clear, or if you just spent the weekend in the loony bin and they didn't realize you had a legally obtain gun when you were released.

this is excellent - lots of people putting forth a "permit to purchase" type of idea. I like the idea of a gun safety course requirement as part of the vetting. the only bother for me is it could be leveraged into a defacto registration. I prefer it to be a blind system - it gives the authorization status (yes or no), but doesn't reverse the info to tell the gov what I purchased. Once I'm cleared to buy, at that point, then my property is not anyone's business.

If the idea behind concealed carry is that it is supposed to be for defence and maybe to help deter crime, then that right should come with responsibility.

With that I mean, mandatory training and annual recertification. If you cannot pass that, you do not get to carry your guns around in public.

Obviously none of that will curb the easy availability of guns, which is a major issue with regards to gun crime, but maybe it will help in the response to the crime.

[turtlespeed 212]

SkyDekker

Dan, not in reply to you directly, but for all:

I have been wondering, what do those, whom think there should be absolutely no gun-free zones, think of the following scenario:

Take the latest school shooting, but now put this in a scholl which is not a gun free zone. A shooting takes place in a class room and somebody responds, draws his weapon and standing in the door takes aim at the shooter inside the classroom.

At that point, somebody turns the corner, hears the shots and sees somebody standing in the doorway shooting into a classroom.

He draws his weapon and kills, what he thinks is the "bad guy" in the doorway shooting into the classroom.

Should that second person now be charged with murder or manslaughter, or should he/she be cleared of any wrongdoing?

A weeks detention and a 2000 word essay on not killing other teachers.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[SkyDekker 1,120]

turtlespeed

***Dan, not in reply to you directly, but for all:

I have been wondering, what do those, whom think there should be absolutely no gun-free zones, think of the following scenario:

Take the latest school shooting, but now put this in a scholl which is not a gun free zone. A shooting takes place in a class room and somebody responds, draws his weapon and standing in the door takes aim at the shooter inside the classroom.

At that point, somebody turns the corner, hears the shots and sees somebody standing in the doorway shooting into a classroom.

He draws his weapon and kills, what he thinks is the "bad guy" in the doorway shooting into the classroom.

Should that second person now be charged with murder or manslaughter, or should he/she be cleared of any wrongdoing?

A weeks detention and a 2000 word essay on not killing other teachers.

I think we have established that a few school kilings are not a big deal for you, and rather joke worthy.

[turtlespeed 212]

SkyDekker

******Dan, not in reply to you directly, but for all:

I have been wondering, what do those, whom think there should be absolutely no gun-free zones, think of the following scenario:

Take the latest school shooting, but now put this in a scholl which is not a gun free zone. A shooting takes place in a class room and somebody responds, draws his weapon and standing in the door takes aim at the shooter inside the classroom.

At that point, somebody turns the corner, hears the shots and sees somebody standing in the doorway shooting into a classroom.

He draws his weapon and kills, what he thinks is the "bad guy" in the doorway shooting into the classroom.

Should that second person now be charged with murder or manslaughter, or should he/she be cleared of any wrongdoing?

A weeks detention and a 2000 word essay on not killing other teachers.

I think we have established that a few school kilings are not a big deal for you, and rather joke worthy.

You would see it that way.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[normiss 620]

You and I both know it's challenging to read sarcasm in text on this site.

[jakee 1,254]

jbscout2002

Switzerland. They have it figured out. Per capita, they have the highest rate of gun ownership in Europe, but the lowest rate of gun violence.

There is a culture there of introducing children to guns in a controlled environment and teaching them about shooting and gun safety. Instead of trying to demonize guns, kids start joining gun clubs as young as 12 years old.

Guns are common, available, a major pastime sport, and NORMAL. Here we demonize them. We try to keep hem away from everyone. Some people want one just cause they can't have it.

But, oddly, they have no visible gun culture.

The only time you're aware of armed Swiss are when they're doing their army reserve marksmanship re-qualification and you can hear the shots from the local open air range, or in hunting season when there are suddenly guys in full camo with scoped rifles slung over their shoulder in the cable cars.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rehmwa 2]

normiss

You and I both know it's challenging to read sarcasm in text on this site.

It's so easy to spot, that one could, as an option, ignore the clear sarcasm and attempt at humor, and obtusely and robotically use it directly to set up strawmen, or issue veiled PAs or character jabs.

I'm not saying that happens here, just that it's an option if one chooses. Insults are a lot more fun, anyway, than two way debate and discussion.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jbscout2002 1]

SkyDekker

*********My thoughts exactly and I don't know if the state is doing rechecks every week, month etc during your CCW permit period to see if it is still valid. There has to be something going on behind the scenes for the federal level to accept this type of authorization.

OK offers a 5 year and 10 year. I think you have to start with the 5, the you can renew with the 10 year. No clue how often, or if they run a check to see if there is a reason to revoke them.

I'm trying to conjur up an idea of a gun permit, just not has difficult to get as a CCW (so people don't fight it and it passes in congress), where you can take a Saturday and pick up a free application at your favorite gun shop. Fill in all your info, stop by Walmart and get a $10 passport photo, then take that to the Sherrifs office and give them $15 to finger print you. Leave them you app, photo, prints, and something like a hunter safety course certificate (but just a gun safety class) and a nominal processing fee. They send it in to your state investigative branch (OSBI, or TBI or whatever) and a couple weeks later you get your card.

Either a separate card or an authorization on your drivers license. The idea is to do this at a state level, but all held to the same federal standard. Some states will have to give a little (NY) and some will have to take a little (TX).

When you buy a gun, rather than a paper application and phone in NICS check, scan your card. Just like your drivers license, any disqualifier will automatically put an electronic hold or revocation on your card. Also at random, Fish and Game officer can see you out hunting and spot check you by calling in your card and seeing if it comes back clear, or if you just spent the weekend in the loony bin and they didn't realize you had a legally obtain gun when you were released.

this is excellent - lots of people putting forth a "permit to purchase" type of idea. I like the idea of a gun safety course requirement as part of the vetting. the only bother for me is it could be leveraged into a defacto registration. I prefer it to be a blind system - it gives the authorization status (yes or no), but doesn't reverse the info to tell the gov what I purchased. Once I'm cleared to buy, at that point, then my property is not anyone's business.

If the idea behind concealed carry is that it is supposed to be for defence and maybe to help deter crime, then that right should come with responsibility.

With that I mean, mandatory training and annual recertification. If you cannot pass that, you do not get to carry your guns around in public.

Obviously none of that will curb the easy availability of guns, which is a major issue with regards to gun crime, but maybe it will help in the response to the crime.

I agree with you on this. Gun "ownership" isn't all self defense and paranoia like it is spun out to be. Yes many people who have them keep one accessible in their bedroom in case of a break in, but many people have them for sport shooting, competitions, hunting, and merely collecting them and never shooting them at all.

The concept of CCW is to be able to defend yourself should you find yourself out in public when a homicidal loan gunman comes through. A very small percentage of the eligible population will even bother to obtain a CCW, and out of those who do, the chances of ever using your gun in a legitimate self defense situation are very slim.

The premise is that neighborhoods where most people are thought to have a firearm in their bedroom will simply see less home invasions or break ins. Also, an area where CCW is popular, but no one knows who is and who isn't carrying, there will be less random robberies, rapes, car jacking, or assaults.

I agree with recertification training as well. Anyone who does shoot handguns knows it isn't "easy". It takes traing and practice to be a "decent" shot with one. Law enforcement and military all quallify with their personal weapons on a regular basis to show that they have maintained proficiency. Failure to qualify leads to remedial training or finding a new profession.

[turtlespeed 212]

normiss

You and I both know it's challenging to read sarcasm in text on this site.

Indubitably

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Bolas 5]

Quote

The premise is that neighborhoods where most people are thought to have a firearm in their bedroom will simply see less home invasions or break ins. Also, an area where CCW is popular, but no one knows who is and who isn't carrying, there will be less random robberies, rapes, car jacking, or assaults.

And that's the whole point. That unknown factor. In the end, it doesn't really matter if even only 10% of the people choose to get their CCW and carry. You're allowing those that wish to be able to defend themselves and others the ability to do so and by proxy protecting others as the criminals don't know who's carrying.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[turtlespeed 212]

Bolas

Quote

The premise is that neighborhoods where most people are thought to have a firearm in their bedroom will simply see less home invasions or break ins. Also, an area where CCW is popular, but no one knows who is and who isn't carrying, there will be less random robberies, rapes, car jacking, or assaults.

And that's the whole point. That unknown factor. In the end, it doesn't really matter if even only 10% of the people choose to get their CCW and carry. You're allowing those that wish to be able to defend themselves and others the ability to do so and by proxy protecting others as the criminals don't know who's carrying.

And thus making the world a better place. Or at least safer.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Good post overall. Yes, that's the challenge - there's no way to determine what level of "crazy" means someone will pick up a gun and start shooting. I do, however, think we can do a much better job of treating mental illnesses than we do now, and also do a better job of determining who is most at risk for violence.

I agree. This is where we can get the most return on investment. Not just in a reduction in mass shootings, but a healthier population. There is no downside, unless cost is considered a downside.

We are the point of diminishing returns for gun laws. There is a bit of room for improvement, but it will have limited impact. For example, ensuring states update the NCIS system in a timely manner with names of people that should not pass the background check.

I learned early on; http://www.snopes.com/horrors/gruesome/headless.asp

Gregory was in my unit (P-Troop, 4/11th ACR) and the phone booth was 30-feet from my barracks room.

If someone does not care about consequences anymore, laws are irrelevant. All the laws do is assign a penalty, if you are caught, to an action. If someone no longer cares about the penalty for their actions, they are very dangerous.

I'm OK with higher (and universal) standards for Concealed Carry Licenses, such as demonstration of skills, as long as the cost is kept down. Cost should not be a barrier to entry for Concealed Carry. This won't have much, if any, affect on mass shootings.

Derek V

[jbscout2002 1]

Quote

I learned early on; http://www.snopes.com/...ruesome/headless.asp

Payback is a Medevac

[jbscout2002 1]

Quote

In my opinion, the simple fact that firearms are much harder to get (the process for acquiring firearms is significantly more complex) is the largest contribution as to why there haven't been more shootings.

Knife-wielding attackers kill 29, injure 130 at China train station

By Ralph Ellis, CNN
Updated 10:20 PM ET, Sun March 2, 2014

Quote

"Suddenly, many people started running around crazily," she said on Tencent Weibo, a Chinese equivalent of Twitter. "We saw two people carrying big cleavers hacking whoever is in the way. They almost got to my back. Then I lost contact with (my friend) and I saw blood splashing in front of me."

Firearms are harder to get in China too.

[jbscout2002 1]

According to Wikipedia-

A series of uncoordinated mass stabbings, hammer attacks, and cleaver attacks in the People's Republic of China in March 2010. The spate of attacks left at least 25 dead and some 115 injured. As most cases had no known motive, analysts have blamed mental health problems caused by rapid social change for the rise in these kinds of mass murder and murder-suicide incidents.

[jbscout2002 1]

On March 23, 2010, Zheng Minsheng (郑民生)[7] 41, murdered eight children with a knife in an elementary school in Nanping,[8] Fujian province

April 2010, another knife-wielding man named Chen Kangbing, 33 (陈康炳)[12] at Hongfu Primary School wounded 16 students and a teacher.[9] Chen Kangbing had been a teacher at a different primary school in Leizhou, but was on sick leave due to mental illness

An attacker named Wu Huanming (吴环明), 48, killed seven children and two adults and injured 11 other persons with a cleaver at a kindergarten in Hanzhong, Shaanxi on May 12, 2010

On 4 August 2010, 26-year-old Fang Jiantang (方建堂) slashed more than 20 children and staff with a 60 cm knife, killing 3 children and 1 teacher, at a kindergarten in Zibo, Shandong province.

August 2011, Eight children, all aged four or five, were hurt in Minhang District, Shanghai when an employee at a child-care centre for migrant workers slashed the children who were 3 to 4 years old with a box-cutter.

In September 2011, a young girl and three adults taking their children to nursery school were killed in Gongyi,[25] Henan by 30-year-old Wang Hongbin with an axe.

On 14 December 2012, a 36-year-old villager in the village of Chenpeng, Henan Province, stabbed 23 children and an elderly woman at the village's primary school as children were arriving for classes.

Quote

Prof. Joshua Miller, chair of Social Welfare Policy at Smith College, attributed the attacks to stress caused by "rapid social change, mass migrations, increasing disparities in wealth and weakening of traditions."

Quote

Following the Chenpeng school attack, the Chinese government began posting security guards in schools throughout the country. It is planned that all schools will have a security guard by 2013.

[jbscout2002 1]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EWvgAM7ISmI

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RCb1KnTEOlg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JNYPauf4sK4

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4EMw_CpM8oo

Do something about these guys, and I will melt down all my guns and make fishing lures out of them.

[christelsabine 1]

jbscout2002

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EWvgAM7ISmI

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RCb1KnTEOlg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JNYPauf4sK4

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4EMw_CpM8oo

Do something about these guys, and I will melt down all my guns and make fishing lures out of them.

Man, you love China! Or Chinese fat guys talking 'merican??

Bwahahahaha ..... thx for that

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[rushmc 18]

kallend

Quote

Federal Firearms Offenses

Federal law makes it illegal for a person to import, produce, or conduct transactions in firearms across state lines. There is an exception if the person possesses a license to import, produce, or deal in firearms.

blah blah blah.

Making something illegal doesn't do a damn bit of good if it can't be, or isn't enforced.

We have a boatload of gun laws on the books that for a variety of reasons can't be enforced. In many cases they have been deliberately made unenforceable as a result of lobbying by the NRA and similar organizations.

THAT is what many of us are objecting to.

What laws?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln