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Driver1

Another mass shooting...

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GeorgiaDon

I'm really sorry to hear of this. You have my condolences.

At the end of the day, it is real people who are being killed and maimed by people wielding guns. Real people are being devastated every day to learn the people they love are gone forever.

Real people. Not just tokens to be paid as some inevitable price for freedom. Who among us would offer our own loved ones to serve as such tokens? Who, having suffered such a loss, would stand up and say "that's OK, it's just the price we must pay to live in a free society".

Don



It has been this way for over 200 years in this country. It is glamorized. We are raised on it. We watch it in movies, play it on video games and deny it is our culture. Shootings are everywhere and they impact each and everyone of us. We all pay the price directly or indirectly. I really do not know what to think. On one hand, I despise guns. On the other, I enjoy shooting targets and deer hunting. I bought a 9mm sub-compact for my wife due to the increase in break ins around the area. She does have a conceal carry permit. I would not be able to live should I not allow a weapon in the house and she was killed by an intruder. This is a case of protection in the house. We do not carry a gun when we go out. Maybe we should. The last family member who was killed by a gun happened more than 50 years ago outside of Las Vegas. Mother's uncle was a mobster and met a bitter end in the desert. That is somewhat understandable. You deal in bad shit, you will be dealt bad shit. I cannot, however, wrap my head around Lexi's murder or the murder of others who are merely there.
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

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mpohl


Being sacrificed on the altar of the second amendment is pretty harsh.

If you could ask the dead, I think all of them would agree.
I bet all of them would have given up their right to bear guns. Just to live another day.

***
Thats a bit harsh.



As would the drivers, that died in a car crash, give up their licenses to drive.

What's the expression? There are no atheists in a fox hole with bullets raining down.

I bet you could ask any dead person, in almost any situation, and they would choose life again. It's human nature. It is how the species survives. It is instinct.

Without it we wouldn't be at all, let alone being able to debate, nonsensically, wether or not a dead person would want to be alive.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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jbscout2002

***

Quote

Can you offer one single control measure that could effectively prevent anything from happening?



No, nor is that a realistic expectation. Generally you would look for ways to reduce, not prevent gun crime.



This one I agree with. I just don't think the answer can be found on the far left or far right. My position is that in choosing a side I'm going to protect gun rights because I don't think that stripping them away will solve anything.

There are an estimated 200 million guns in America owned by an estimated 60-65 million people. Personally, I think the real number is twice that much.

If you ban all guns in America, completely disarm the country, and make everything illegal, there are still 200 million guns out there. Most people will not comply, so those guns will be stashed here and there, and steadily people will get caught with them and the prisons will become inundated with otherwise good law abiding people who became a nonviolent criminal over night because they disagreed with a law that violated their constitution.

Even if I played along, my approximately $25k collection of firearms becomes illegal and I just hand it over to be melted down without compensation?

This is a strawman. No-one is seriously suggesting a total gun ban.

There is a lot of middle ground between the totally ineffective system we currently have that fails to keep guns away from people who shouldn't have them (convicted felons, the mentally disturbed), and a total ban. Canada and Australia... have not banned guns, but they do a far better job of preventing gun crime than we do.

The USA has the worst record of gun murders of any first world nation. And that is NOT because Americans are just nastier people than Australians, Brits and Canadians.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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I believe in the theory that these shootings are becoming more common because the American society is becoming desensitized to violence through video games like Grand Theft Auto and Call of Duty.

I don't really play video games, but a lot of my Soldiers do. They showed me a level on Call of Duty, where you walk through a mall and kill all the civilians with a medium machine gun. Why? What is the point of having that in the story line of the game? And the. GTA is all about crime. You get your point based on how many murders and rapes you commit.

These games and the Internet and such, tends to keep people isolated in their house or room rather than being out and socially interacting with other people. I'm guessing most of these mass shooters are introverts, and not members of a church, volunteer fire department, or play on a local softball team or whatever.

Combine all this with making it illegal and taboo to spank a kid when they screw up, and it's a recipe for disaster. This everyone is a winner, nothing is your fault, your not being a trouble maker you just have ADHD mentality.

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SkyDekker

Quote

"Call the police." I ask, "Why?". They always respond, "They have guns." Then I get quiet and watch as their facial expression changes as they slowly realize what they just said.



I think it is a fair statement, even if you think it is funny. I will explain why:

I am fine with police and criminals being the only people walking around with guns. I understand that some innocent people will die, where the easy availability of guns could have prevented their death. I am willing to "pay that price", because I believe that fewer murders take place when less guns are easily available. I believe that society as a whole is better off that way.

You appear to be willing to pay the price of more murders in your society, as long as you get to keep your guns.



It seems you are willing to pay with my life. Your solution offers only the willing target solution


This college had/has exactly what you want. No one there with guns except the bad guy and the cops. How did that turn out?
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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jbscout2002

I believe in the theory that these shootings are becoming more common because the American society is becoming desensitized to violence through video games like Grand Theft Auto and Call of Duty.



Of course, they don't have video games in Canada, Australia and Britain. :S

You appear to be a soldier. Don't you think that maybe your training gives you a different view of the effectiveness of a firearm for self defense in a high stress situation than would be the case for an untrained civilian?
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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It seems you are willing to pay with my life. Your solution offers only the willing target solution


This college had/has exactly what you want. No one there with guns except the bad guy and the cops. How did that turn out?



Seriously, what a load of crap.

I am not willing to pay with anybody's life. Innocent people will continue to die unfortunately. The question is how we can reduce the number of innocent people dying.

The logic in your last sentence is so incredibly faulty, that I don't think discussing any of that with you is in any way worth it.

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SkyDekker

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It seems you are willing to pay with my life. Your solution offers only the willing target solution


This college had/has exactly what you want. No one there with guns except the bad guy and the cops. How did that turn out?



Seriously, what a load of crap.

I am not willing to pay with anybody's life. Innocent people will continue to die unfortunately. The question is how we can reduce the number of innocent people dying.

The logic in your last sentence is so incredibly faulty, that I don't think discussing any of that with you is in any way worth it.



No
You just trapped yourself

Matter of fact

One shooter was going to a school that he learned had armed security

He picked another target
Another gun free zone exploited

You dont want a gun
Fine
Keep your hands off mine
I do not want to be the currency of your so called price
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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kallend

***I believe in the theory that these shootings are becoming more common because the American society is becoming desensitized to violence through video games like Grand Theft Auto and Call of Duty.



Of course, they don't have video games in Canada, Australia and Britain. :S


You appear to be a soldier. Don't you think that maybe your training gives you a different view of the effectiveness of a firearm for self defense in a high stress situation than would be the case for an untrained civilian?

Gun control in Austrailia and UK was a systematic disarming of those countries. After mass shootings in both countries, the citizens agreed to a thorough registration system. The governments then enacted laws that banned semi automatic riffles, then pistols, then severely restricted remaining rifles and shotguns. With the registration systems they had, police simply knocked on gun owners' doors with a warrant and confiscated them (this is we us diehards oppose centralized registration).

In both countries there are very limited firearms with even more limited access to them. Someone from the UK or Austrailia please chime in and tell me how easy it is to take your son out in the back pasture and teach him how to shoot a .22, or take him on his first turkey hunt.

To a slightly lesser extent, the same has/is happening in Canada, it just hasn't gotten that far yet, and it's too cold to go out and commit crimes.

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Quote

You dont want a gun
Fine
Keep your hands off mine
I do not want to be the currency of your so called price



I guess I have to stoop to your level....

Interesting how you are fine with the price these students paid so you can have your gun. Hope you donate some money to the families.

The downfall of America will be because of the mindset you display. Me, Me, Me and fuck everybody else.

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SkyDekker


. The question is how we can reduce the number of innocent people dying.

.



Let people arms themselves
Perfect solution?
No
People will still die

You said it yourself and seem ok with some price

In the case of people being armed, I think fewer may have died
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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SkyDekker

Quote

You dont want a gun
Fine
Keep your hands off mine
I do not want to be the currency of your so called price



I guess I have to stoop to your level....

Interesting how you are fine with the price these students paid so you can have your gun. Hope you donate some money to the families.

The downfall of America will be because of the mindset you display. Me, Me, Me and fuck everybody else.



No
The downfall is being caused by the big government control all liberals

You are the one that brought up a price and what is acceptable. Not me
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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rushmc

***
. The question is how we can reduce the number of innocent people dying.

.



Let people arms themselves
Perfect solution?
No
People will still die

You said it yourself and seem ok with some price

In the case of people being armed, I think fewer may have died

To a large extent that is already the case.

Compare the US to Canada.

One country allows their citizens to arm themselves pretty freely. The other allows arms, but far more restricted.

When you compare those two, I don't understand how the conclusion is that more guns would reduce the number of innocent people dying.

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SkyDekker



I guess I have to stoop to your level....

Interesting how you are fine with the price these students paid so you can have your gun. .



THIS is a very telling sentence you posted

It will be interesting to see how you back this one up

what level of stoop it that?
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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rushmc

***
. The question is how we can reduce the number of innocent people dying.

.



Let people arms themselves
Perfect solution?
No
People will still die

You said it yourself and seem ok with some price

In the case of people being armed, I think fewer may have died

I think we should hold off on all judgement until we here what Alex Jones has to say about the whole thing. I smell a "false flag" operation.

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SkyDekker

******
. The question is how we can reduce the number of innocent people dying.

.



Let people arms themselves
Perfect solution?
No
People will still die

You said it yourself and seem ok with some price

In the case of people being armed, I think fewer may have died

To a large extent that is already the case.

Compare the US to Canada.

One country allows their citizens to arm themselves pretty freely. The other allows arms, but far more restricted.

When you compare those two, I don't understand how the conclusion is that more guns would reduce the number of innocent people dying.

Gun ownership has increase greatly in the last 7 years

Yet violent crime and gun crime continues to decrease

I know why you dont understand because you dont realize that there is no causation link here
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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rushmc

***

I guess I have to stoop to your level....

Interesting how you are fine with the price these students paid so you can have your gun. .



THIS is a very telling sentence you posted

It will be interesting to see how you back this one up

what level of stoop it that?

The easy availability of guns increases gun violence. Americans aren't inherently more violent than Canadians, it is just significantly easier to be very violent in the US.

You don't really care, as long as you get to keep your gun, THAT is the single most important part.

Hence, this significantly higher number of innocent people getting killed is the price american society pays for the right to walk around with a gun.

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SkyDekker

******

I guess I have to stoop to your level....

Interesting how you are fine with the price these students paid so you can have your gun. .



THIS is a very telling sentence you posted

It will be interesting to see how you back this one up

what level of stoop it that?

The easy availability of guns increases gun violence. Americans aren't inherently more violent than Canadians, it is just significantly easier to be very violent in the US.

You don't really care, as long as you get to keep your gun, THAT is the single most important part.

Hence, this significantly higher number of innocent people getting killed is the price american society pays for the right to walk around with a gun.

It is very ignorant to keep saying what I do or do not care about as you have no idea

Not that this has ever stopped you before

And the gun has nothing to do with your claim here
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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SkyDekker

Quote

Yet violent crime and gun crime continues to decrease



And is still orders of magnitude higher than other 1st world countries.



So you admit to no link then?

BTW
You keep moving the goal posts
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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rushmc

***

Quote

Yet violent crime and gun crime continues to decrease



And is still orders of magnitude higher than other 1st world countries.



So you admit to no link then?

BTW
You keep moving the goal posts

I believe there is a link between the very high gun crime rates and the easy availability of guns in the US.

I don't believe that the reduction in crime rates over the last years has anything to do with increased gun ownership.

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jbscout2002

Anomalies happen. Young scared poorly trained weekend warriors during a tumultuous time following orders from an emotionally unstable and inexperienced young Sargeant.




You are the anomaly.

You are trained to deal with high stress situations with lethal force.

Most people who want the right to carry guns everywhere aren't, and that's the problem. Everyone thinks that they'll go all James Bond in a situation like that but it's a fantasy. If it was so easy why would government agencies spend so long programming people to deal with those situations...?

If memory serves didn't a couple of policeman mow down a load of bystanders in NY not too long ago while trying to shoot at a criminal? If they're that bad at it, joe public isn't going to be any better...


The truth is that having more guns in public in untrained hands can only make the overall situation worse. Both with easier access for criminals to steal them, the liklihood of people with mental instability to have access to them, and the potential for more bystanders to be injured.

Can you imagine what would happen if 6 or 7 people were armed in a situation like this? Someone panics or accidentally hits an innocent, someone else thinks they're part of the problem and shoots at them, and all of a sudden it's a free-for-all.

I will never be convinced that having more people carrying firearms is the solution to these problems. I just don't trust people that much.

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