Teen suspended for protecting blind teen from beating

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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so republicans don't get degrees or diplomas?

Whatever you say. I would not have put it that way, but if that's what you got out of the discussion, have at it.

Degrees and diplomas may teach you how to write computer code, administer a business, compose a poem, or whatever. These are useful things to know, no doubt. What we are talking about here is, however, asking questions and verifying information before jumping to conclusions. Thinking critically is an essential defense against being easily manipulated. Of course, that includes asking critical questions about "news stories", political statements, etc that happen to agree with your ideas, as well as those that oppose. It's easy to be critical of things you disagree with, considerably more challenging to try to attack things you think are true. However, things that are supported by evidence will stand up to critical appraisal, and then you can be more confident that they are actually true.

This how science works, or at least how it is supposed to work. You work hard to come up with a brilliant hypothesis, then you work harder to disprove that hypothesis. If you (and others) throw every experiment you can think of at the hypothesis and it still stands up, you can have some confidence that the hypothesis is an accurate (or at least useful) explanation of the real world. If your hypothesis is disproven, you learn from the results of your experiments and come up with a new hypothesis that fits the facts you have discovered by testing the first hypothesis.

People who work as scientists expect their ideas to be constantly challenged. Challenge is welcomed and appreciated. If no-one challenges your ideas, it means your ideas are irrelevant or they are being ignored. Welcoming and encouraging critical examination of your ideas is a useful skill, as it forces you to constantly think, re-evaluate, and improve your ideas.

This would be an excellent skill for everybody to learn, especially politicians. Instead, it seems (at least in the US) that people who are willing to listen to alternative ideas, accept challenge, and where appropriate re-evaluate their positions and beliefs are attacked as "weak" and "flip-floppers". As a society (at least as far as politics is concerned) we seem to value leaders who exemplify stubbornness and unshakable confidence in their own correctness, regardless of what objective reality may say.

I wish every diploma and degree program would include a large dose of critical thinking skills. Unfortunately that is often not the case.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[skypuppy 1]

GeorgiaDon

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why be so arrogant and condescending? I would almost call this a personal attack...

I think your hearing aid might be broken. You only seem to hear one side of every discussion.

Don

so this statement is NOT narrow-minded and ingnorant?

Why bother to find out what really happened when the ignorant rumor fits your narrow minded view of the way things should be so much better?

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[skypuppy 1]

GeorgiaDon

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so republicans don't get degrees or diplomas?

Whatever you say. I would not have put it that way, but if that's what you got out of the discussion, have at it.

Don

Here is what you wrote.

almost the entirety of the Republican party faithful are afflicted. I suspect this is a direct result for their disdain for higher education and contempt for people who have actually invested the time to develop expertise in any discipline other than sports.

How could I have misunderstood that? It's pretty clear. I still think you made a personal attack on someone, calling them narrow-minded, and here you said Republicans aren't educated. And you don't seem to mind. I would also say that your speech about scientists welcoming challenges to their hypothesis doesn't pan out in the way I see some scientists saying that people who don't believe in global warming should be put in jail. Seems it only works in some cases....

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[jakee 1,254]

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And I would submit that the dumb asses I cited sure as hell wanted to suspend that kid who defended the blind student and they were talking about it behind closed doors in private conversation.

And I would submit that making shit up about things that a group of people you dislike might be thinking and then using it as a reason to dislike them is really, really stupid!

I submit that you like to kick puppies, and even though you never kicked one you really, really want to if you thought you could get away with it. Therefore, I dislike you!

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Boomerdog 0]

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I submit that you like to kick puppies, and even though you never kicked one you really, really want to if you thought you could get away with it. Therefore, I dislike you!

Oh well...friends come, friends go and enemies accumulate.
Pick a number and get in the queue...you're not the first and you sure as hell won't be the last.

With respect to animal abuse...HMMM. I've shared my life with three Bullmastiffs (one was rescued) one great mixed breed dog (which we had as a puppy and never got kicked). I've rescued five cats. I've agonized on all six occasions having to put down four dogs and two cats; the most recent being two weeks ago when a wonderful three year old kitty of ours developed massive urinary blockage compounded by a significant heart murmur and the vet told us there was nothing more to be done. I'm a real animal abuser aren't I. But you do validate a belief of mine that four legged critters are a hell of a lot better to be around than two legged ones...present company included.

[turtlespeed 212]

Boomerdog

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I submit that you like to kick puppies, and even though you never kicked one you really, really want to if you thought you could get away with it. Therefore, I dislike you!

Oh well...friends come, friends go and enemies accumulate.
Pick a number and get in the queue...you're not the first and you sure as hell won't be the last.

With respect to animal abuse...HMMM. I've shared my life with three Bullmastiffs (one was rescued) one great mixed breed dog (which we had as a puppy and never got kicked). I've rescued five cats. I've agonized on all six occasions having to put down four dogs and two cats; the most recent being two weeks ago when a wonderful three year old kitty of ours developed massive urinary blockage compounded by a significant heart murmur and the vet told us there was nothing more to be done. I'm a real animal abuser aren't I. But you do validate a belief of mine that four legged critters are a hell of a lot better to be around than two legged ones...present company included.

So you haven't stopped kicking puppies yet?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rehmwa 2]

jakee

And I would submit that making shit up about things that a group of people you dislike might be thinking and then using it as a reason to dislike them is really, really stupid!

yet you seem to enjoy Speaker's Corner??
(it's the basis for probably 95% of every single post here)

puppy kicking is an art - you need to make inline contact to get them to rotate end over end - with their little tongues flapping in the wind. So hard to do with their big, shiny, trusting eyes.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[turtlespeed 212]

rehmwa

***And I would submit that making shit up about things that a group of people you dislike might be thinking and then using it as a reason to dislike them is really, really stupid!

yet you seem to enjoy Speaker's Corner??
(it's the basis for probably 95% of every single post here)

puppy kicking is an art - you need to make inline contact to get them to rotate end over end - with their little tongues flapping in the wind. So hard to do with their big, shiny, trusting eyes.

What are you talking about, puppies don't have tongues . . .

Oh, you meant K9s.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[jakee 1,254]

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I'm a real animal abuser aren't I.

No, but you want to be. I know that because I dislike you. And knowing it makes me dislike you more. Dog hating bastard!

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,254]

rehmwa

***And I would submit that making shit up about things that a group of people you dislike might be thinking and then using it as a reason to dislike them is really, really stupid!

yet you seem to enjoy Speaker's Corner??
(it's the basis for probably 95% of every single post here)

You just made that up to justify bashing Speaker's Corner.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[turtlespeed 212]

jakee

******And I would submit that making shit up about things that a group of people you dislike might be thinking and then using it as a reason to dislike them is really, really stupid!

yet you seem to enjoy Speaker's Corner??
(it's the basis for probably 95% of every single post here)

You just made that up to justify bashing Speaker's Corner.

87.4% of all statistics are made up in speakers corner.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Boomerdog 0]

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/beach-684634-huntington-school.html

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2015/09/25/student-who-defended-classmate-in-huntington-beach-school-fight-not-suspended/

The fight did occur as reported so the whole story is not a lie but a mixture of fact and fiction as we are finding out. Now the aftermath of what transpired from the basic facts is where the water gets muddied and I got sucked into the indignation of it all. Yup I sure did. No walking back this one. Now that this part is settled comes the fun part…speculation of which I freely admit but that’s what Speaker’s Corner is about, I hope.

So Don SUSPECTS 43,000 people got “punked” into responding to a petition. One news article reports 43,000 and an article I provide above (local source) says 60,000. Then Don questions my suspicions asking me for solid proof of my allegations. So Don’s suspicions are right and mine are wrong because he’s him and I’m me. What’s wrong with this picture? So now we got a verbal fracas going on here…woooohooo!

Do I have proof, school officials (in private) wanted to suspend the student for coming to the aid of the blind student. Nope! Muff528 weighs in on a personal experience and Turtlespeed provides a hoot of an article if true. There are just too many of stories like these all over the net.

In matters such as these, I’m not confident in human nature as exhibited by school principals and administrators who can’t or willfully refuse to recognize the difference between being a bully and standing up to one. They’re only compounding injustice. But as I stated above, the net is full of way too many stories about asinine suspensions under this “zero tolerance policy.” These stories probably get reported with the truth stretched to milk out the sensational factor. But embellishment notwithstanding school administrators using good judgment in such cases is about as rare as winning the lottery. Yea, I still think those school clowns in Huntington Beach privately deliberated and wanted to send that kid packing. The truth has a strange ways of leaking out so maybe I’ll be proved wrong or maybe the converse.

OK...there you be. Whether you're satisfied? Well, that's your call

[Boomerdog 0]

Insult without argument is the sign of a fool.

Rage on, I'm really enjoying your tirade.

[stayhigh 2]

funny how some take it real serious on a dorkzone.com

you say whatever you want here and move on to the next interesting thread.

fuck you all.
.
.
.
.
You see?
thats how you do it.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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...I got sucked into the indignation of it all. Yup I sure did. No walking back this one.

Well, don't feel too bad, you certainly were not the only one.

Quote

So Don SUSPECTS 43,000 people got “punked” into responding to a petition. One news article reports 43,000 and an article I provide above (local source) says 60,000. Then Don questions my suspicions asking me for solid proof of my allegations. So Don’s suspicions are right and mine are wrong because he’s him and I’m me.Tongue[/:P] What’s wrong with this picture?

There are only two possibilities about why people signed the petition.
A: People believed the false story that the kid had been suspended from school and kicked off the football team, they were outraged, and signed the petition. OR
B. People "fact-checked" the story, discovered that the kid had not been suspended or kicked off the team, yet (for some reason) they still signed the petition, in effect demanding that the school board not do something that they hadn't done.

Are there any other possibilities I missed?

So, when I SUSPECT that A is what happened, it is because A is what people do all the time, and B is somewhat insane. If people knew the petition was a response to something that actually was a lie, why would they still sign it? I'm fairly sure you would not sign a petition if you knew the topic of the petition was not true.

It really isn't a "Don vs Boomerdog" popularity contest or anything, it's just that A is overwhelmingly more likely than B.

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...school administrators using good judgment in such cases is about as rare as winning the lottery. Yea, I still think those school clowns in Huntington Beach privately deliberated and wanted to send that kid packing.

Sigh. And I thought we were making progress. So what people actually do doesn't count, all that matters is your assumptions. They are "dumbasses" (as per an earlier post of yours) even though they actually did what you seem to think is the right thing. They are dumbasses if they suspend the kid, and they are dumbasses if they don't. They can't win, for no other reason than that you have a personal bias against school administrators?

This is, of course, the exact line of "thinking" people apply against any group of people they have a bias against. Ignore what people, as individuals, actually do, and just substitute your preconceptions about their "group" (job, race, religion, level of education, sexual orientation, etc).

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Muff528 weighs in on a personal experience and Turtlespeed provides a hoot of an article if true. There are just too many of stories like these all over the net.

Yes, there are many such stories. Some of them are true. Some of them certainly open the individuals who made those decisions to criticism and ridicule. But, direct the criticism to those people.

Also, it helps to take a second and think through the decisions that school administrators actually have to make. Try to put yourself in their shoes.

Muff's story was interesting in that regard. On the face of it, it was unfair to suspend Muff's kid, assuming his kid's story was the true one (which I am not questioning). However, what happened was that the teacher sees the retaliation (Muff's kid pushing the other kid) and not the start of the confrontation. So Muff's kid is penalized. That sucks, but it happens all the time in sports for example, the ref only sees the retaliation and the instigator escapes being penalized. It's a "life's not always fair" lesson.

What is a teacher (or ref) who sees one kid shove another to do?
A. Penalize only the kid that they see misbehaving? That is unfair to kids like Muff's kid, and teaches the other kid that they can get away with bullying.
B. Assume both were involved and penalize both? That is unfair to the kid who was an innocent victim of an attack.
C. Recognize that they didn't see the start of the encounter, and so punish neither party? Bullies will quickly learn that they can beat up anyone they like, and just claim the other student started it but the teacher didn't see it.
D. Do like they did when I was in school, figure that fighting/bullying is just part of life kids have to learn to deal with, and do nothing to stop it?

It seems to me that none of the options are ideal. Which one do you think is best?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[GeorgiaDon 340]

I like puppies!

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[muff528 3]

GeorgiaDon

....

What is a teacher (or ref) who sees one kid shove another to do?
A. Penalize only the kid that they see misbehaving? That is unfair to kids like Muff's kid, and teaches the other kid that they can get away with bullying.
B. Assume both were involved and penalize both? That is unfair to the kid who was an innocent victim of an attack.
C. Recognize that they didn't see the start of the encounter, and so punish neither party? Bullies will quickly learn that they can beat up anyone they like, and just claim the other student started it but the teacher didn't see it.
D. Do like they did when I was in school, figure that fighting/bullying is just part of life kids have to learn to deal with, and do nothing to stop it?

It seems to me that none of the options are ideal. Which one do you think is best?

Don

In my case we're talking about kids in grade school. so, yes "D" ....and E. Park both of their little butts in the corner for a while. The altercation started before the "violence" took place, so both kids were guilty of disrupting the class. My comment was really about the zero-tolerance focus on only the "violent act" without considering the boys' initial disruption of the class. And also about the school taking the path of least resistance by mindlessly doling out "mandatory" punishment rather than reasoned discipline, and without regard for, or any interest in, any facts. The "zero-tolerance" nonsense absolves those in authority of their responsibility to keep control of their classrooms. This even translates to my opposition to mandatory sentences for criminal convictions. It takes the Judge and reasoned thought out of the judgement.

I have to say that, in our case, the generational difference (or age difference) between my son and I is more grandfather/grandson-like. rather than father/son-like. So, most parents of kids who were in school with my son are in the generation normally occupied by an intermediate age group. So those parents experienced an intermediate step between the type of discipline my generation received in school and the type my kid was exposed to, and they generally just go along with whatever the school hands down. Many things that were done by the school during my son's years there seemed ridiculous or nonsensical to me. (Not sure if I communicated my thought in that paragraph.)

[GeorgiaDon 340]

I'm in agreement with you on the "zero tolerance" thing, and on the "mandatory sentencing" thing as well.

One other thing that has changed in schools, and in society in general I think, is that people are much quicker to turn to lawyers, and they really expect schools to provide absolute safety from any conceivable harm. Option "D" would be met with a lawsuit before you could blink an eye, I'm pretty sure. Indeed, any discrepancy between how one situation is handled vs another would likely be met with a lawsuit claiming discrimination. Safer to treat every conflict exactly the same.

When I was in 5th or 6th grade I had a teacher who kept a couple of India rubber balls (the hard ones that really bounced) in his desk. If he saw you talking in class, nodding off, or sometimes just being distracted, he'd let loose with one of those. They really hurt, and left a bruise, which could be hard to explain at home if it was on your face. Sometimes he'd miss and hit the kid behind his target, or the ball would rocket off the back wall and hit people at random. It was a Catholic school and they were quite strict about discipline, but I can't imagine any school allowing that today. Anyway some parents grumbled but no-one ever even threatened a lawsuit. It would be very different today.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[jakee 1,254]

Boomerdog

Insult without argument is the sign of a fool.

Rage on, I'm really enjoying your tirade.

You should go back and read my first post again, because I'm afraid you really don't understand what I'm saying!

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[turtlespeed 212]

jakee

***Insult without argument is the sign of a fool.

Rage on, I'm really enjoying your tirade.

You should go back and read my first post again, because I'm afraid you really don't understand what I'm saying!

What does this have anything to do with it?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,384]

Jakee, Boomerdog - enough. Your one warning.