WTF is wrong with American police?

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Quote

I've been curious about that one. What are the rules on defending yourself from a plain-clothed officer attacking you?

I hope someone who knows what they are talking about answers this, because I'm curious as well.

I'm also curious, if a cop is wailing away at your head with their baton, is trying to shield your head with your arms "resisting"? What are you supposed to do in such a circumstance? Turn your head to make it easy for the cop to bash out all of your teeth?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Anvilbrother 0]

Plain clothes deputy's here wear their badge under their shirt on a chain. They pull it out and center it on their chest and will loudly and clearly announce SHERIFFS OFFICE to identify themselves. This is a situation where they cannot get a marked unit en route due to exigent circumstances before they need to take action.

Usually if it is known they will be addressing the public they will request marked units to come to the scene with them. We would roll in with them as they do whatever they needed to do.

I have never heard an issue about our department doing this from the courts.

I also question the idea of NON marked units on the interstate. I recently drove from La. to Atlanta,Ga. and the number of unmarked units (probably drug interdiction) was alarming. I know a local police department here Denham Springs if you want to look it up bought black cars and used black reflective letters for the lettering. This is for normal police patrol cars used daily, and I think it is dangerous and stupid to do so.

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[GeorgiaDon 340]

Quote

Micheal browns friend also did not tell the truth ...

I agree that even well meaning witnesses may not see the whole thing from the beginning, and five people can witness the same incident and you may get 10 different stories. That is why I hope the cop's camera was recording the start of the incident.

I admit I do not know what started this thing off. But I am also curious about how they end, once they get going. If someone is beating away at you with a club, it is human nature to put up your arms and try to shield yourself. However that seems to be taken as "resistance" and a reason to continue the beating. I know for sure if someone is bashing away at my face with a club I am not going to just lie there passively and take the beating, yet that seems to be the response that some cops are looking for.

What does the police training manual say about when to stop beating people?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Anvilbrother 0]

You escalate force with force is what our protocol was. You did not have to go step 1,2,3,4 if they went immedatly to 4 with a gun, but you were supposed to meet stick with stick, gun with gun etc. Thats why I question the rest of this incident. For all we know they were in a fist fight before this video started and he obtained compliance with his baton, and did him a favor by not shooting him like all the other cops we see doing. A bunch of cops showed up fast, and with a determined demeanor which means to me that the cop on the scene first called it in as pretty serious. It could have been for real or an over reaction by him. ONCE again we don't know that.

Like I said before I am not making any judgement until we get all the details, and I am in agreement if it was Police abuse and brutality with you guys.

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[GeorgiaDon 340]

Quote

I recently drove from La. to Atlanta,Ga. and the number of unmarked units (probably drug interdiction...

A while ago I was talking to a cop friend of mine here in Georgia, and I mentioned a disturbing thing that happened when I was in New Mexico. I had flown into Albuquerque and picked up a rental car, and as I had the day free I was driving to visit some state parks. As I drove through the town of Jemez Springs a police car started following me very close, sometimes pulling up so close I could not see his headlights . The speed limit on the highway through there is really slow, just 45 mph, so I set the cruise control for 43. That cop followed me, sometimes backing off and sometimes pulling up really close, for 12 miles out of town!

My cop friend explained the New Mexico cop had likely noticed that I was driving a rental with out of state plates and was trying to "spook" me into speeding or swerving or something so he could pull me over and look for drugs. Then my friend told me they do this all the time on I85 here in Georgia. Apparently in the northbound lanes they are looking for drugs, and in the southbound lanes it's drug money they expect to find. Either way, pulling in behind someone real close and following them for miles is intended to make people nervous, and of course you only get nervous if you are doing something illegal. As if.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[RMK 3]

I get exactly the same thing. Was in 45 zone and set cruise to exactly 43 and I get stopped (he says I was speeding). I'm not in the mood for a tasing, so don't argue the point.

I don't even speak to US policemen/border guards/customs officers anymore; I just look at them blankly and grunt yes or no.

"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

[normiss 620]

Expecting a 14 year old kid to understand a violent felony apprehension of a violent jaywalking act of serious criminal behavior would be idiotic IMO.
14 year old understanding of legal anything would be about the same.

[Anvilbrother 0]

Not even gonna reply to what you stated you dont know how they got to the situation they were in when the video started.

I will put it in terms of this exact website. When there is say a fatality under canopy there are people who will rush in and say something about how X shouldn't have hook turned, or something else when they have no clue the details early on. Then someone with sense will come in and say please keep speculation and names out until we know all the details and the family has been notified. Sometimes it is something completely different than a user induced fatality, and people delete post and look like idiots. Why isnt that same thought process used here especially when we enter a video that starts half way and not a single person here knows what the hell was truthfully going on besides a video from a bystander.

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[dmcoco84 4]

quade

***To all the posts that represent Britain as this society not having any real criminals/deviants, those of us who live here would love that it was true.

However, the reality is not all "sipping tea in our English gardens".

I don't believe anyone said The UK didn't have any. That said, yours is a society rooted in the class system and people do tend to be more subservient.

YOU HAVE A FUCKING QUEEN. While I'll admit there are some in the UK who are fed up with it, there seem to be an awful lot who think it's just fine to nearly deify a person simply because of their lineage.

That doesn't fly in the US where "all men are created equal" (minus those counted as 3/5ths).

Still displaying you have poor reading comprehension skills...

I don't have time to return from my hiatus, yet, but I will for that continued absurd statement.

...but, at least you haven't edited your post, yet.


Hi Amazon ... (Blows a Kiss) ...belated Welcome Back.
.
.
.
P.S... looking forward to seeing the body cam.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

GeorgiaDon

Quote

I've been curious about that one. What are the rules on defending yourself from a plain-clothed officer attacking you?

I hope someone who knows what they are talking about answers this, because I'm curious as well.

I'm also curious, if a cop is wailing away at your head with their baton, is trying to shield your head with your arms "resisting"? What are you supposed to do in such a circumstance? Turn your head to make it easy for the cop to bash out all of your teeth?

Don

It's gonna suck.

Part of me would really, really like to see one of these overzealous bullies attack someone who knows what they are doing (an MMA cagefighter would be good).
Run up to them, no ID, no warning and just attack.
The cop would be on the ground and bleeding in a heartbeat.

The other cops would then run up, beat the hell out of the guy, arrest him for resisting, assault on a cop and whatever else they could make up.

Without video of the incident and a really good lawyer, it will be a case of 3 cops' word against one "suspect".

Who do you think is going to win that one?

Courts have found that an innocent homeowner can use force against the cops in the event of them forcibly entering a home (no-knock search warrant executed at the wrong house, for example).

But the poor guy who the cops attacked had his life pretty much destroyed in the process.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi bigbearfng,

Quote

criminals impersonating an officer

This guy was quite infamous back in the day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_2455,_Death_Row

I read this book when it came out; I could not put it down.

Jerry Baumchen

[Anvilbrother 0]

wolfriverjoe

***

Quote

I've been curious about that one. What are the rules on defending yourself from a plain-clothed officer attacking you?

I hope someone who knows what they are talking about answers this, because I'm curious as well.

I'm also curious, if a cop is wailing away at your head with their baton, is trying to shield your head with your arms "resisting"? What are you supposed to do in such a circumstance? Turn your head to make it easy for the cop to bash out all of your teeth?

Don

It's gonna suck.

Part of me would really, really like to see one of these overzealous bullies attack someone who knows what they are doing (an MMA cagefighter would be good).
Run up to them, no ID, no warning and just attack.
The cop would be on the ground and bleeding in a heartbeat.

The other cops would then run up, beat the hell out of the guy, arrest him for resisting, assault on a cop and whatever else they could make up.

Without video of the incident and a really good lawyer, it will be a case of 3 cops' word against one "suspect".

Who do you think is going to win that one?

Courts have found that an innocent homeowner can use force against the cops in the event of them forcibly entering a home (no-knock search warrant executed at the wrong house, for example).

But the poor guy who the cops attacked had his life pretty much destroyed in the process.

The courts? Where do you get that? There was a guy who was just convicted for shooting a cop in a no knock situation.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[ryoder 1,381]

wolfriverjoe

It's gonna suck.

Part of me would really, really like to see one of these overzealous bullies attack someone who knows what they are doing (an MMA cagefighter would be good).
Run up to them, no ID, no warning and just attack.
The cop would be on the ground and bleeding in a heartbeat.

The other cops would then run up, beat the hell out of the guy, arrest him for resisting, assault on a cop and whatever else they could make up.

Without video of the incident and a really good lawyer, it will be a case of 3 cops' word against one "suspect".

Who do you think is going to win that one?

Courts have found that an innocent homeowner can use force against the cops in the event of them forcibly entering a home (no-knock search warrant executed at the wrong house, for example).

But the poor guy who the cops attacked had his life pretty much destroyed in the process.

When I was in college, I was researching the Indiana code on self defense, utilizing copies of it in the college library. This was preparation for a speech on self defense law. (I had already read "In the Gravest Extreme", but was looking for state-specific info.) One of these copies was "annotated", i.e. they had text next to the verbatim code describing actual court cases from the past which referenced that section of the code. One of them astonished me:

A guy was walking down the street when a cop ran up to him from behind, and without even speaking, smashed him over the head with a nightstick. The guy spun around and shot the cop dead. The court ruled justified self defense!

The cop had mistakenly believed the guy was a wanted man. Now IIRC this happened nearly 100 years ago. I don't recall specifics regarding witnesses.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[bigbearfng 9]

JerryBaumchen

Hi bigbearfng,

Quote

criminals impersonating an officer

This guy was quite infamous back in the day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_2455,_Death_Row

I read this book when it came out; I could not put it down.

Jerry Baumchen

I wasn't familiar with that case-thanks for the link!

[kallend 1,621]

NewGuy2005

***.... I’ve also lived in small-town America and seen the genetic detritus that constitutes the local police force of your average hick town.

I've lived in small town America all my life and I have not seen this.

Maybe you just need to get out more.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[turtlespeed 212]

kallend

******.... I’ve also lived in small-town America and seen the genetic detritus that constitutes the local police force of your average hick town.

I've lived in small town America all my life and I have not seen this.

Maybe you just need to get out more.

How many times have you personally witnessed it?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Amazon 7]

wolfriverjoe

***

Quote

I've been curious about that one. What are the rules on defending yourself from a plain-clothed officer attacking you?

I hope someone who knows what they are talking about answers this, because I'm curious as well.

I'm also curious, if a cop is wailing away at your head with their baton, is trying to shield your head with your arms "resisting"? What are you supposed to do in such a circumstance? Turn your head to make it easy for the cop to bash out all of your teeth?

Don

It's gonna suck.

Part of me would really, really like to see one of these overzealous bullies attack someone who knows what they are doing (an MMA cagefighter would be good).
Run up to them, no ID, no warning and just attack.
The cop would be on the ground and bleeding in a heartbeat.

The other cops would then run up, beat the hell out of the guy, arrest him for resisting, assault on a cop and whatever else they could make up.

Without video of the incident and a really good lawyer, it will be a case of 3 cops' word against one "suspect".

Who do you think is going to win that one?

Courts have found that an innocent homeowner can use force against the cops in the event of them forcibly entering a home (no-knock search warrant executed at the wrong house, for example).

But the poor guy who the cops attacked had his life pretty much destroyed in the process.

I am betting that a citizen like that would not need a lawyer.. but his family after burying him, would do great on the wrongful death lawsuit.

[kallend 1,621]

turtlespeed

*********.... I’ve also lived in small-town America and seen the genetic detritus that constitutes the local police force of your average hick town.

I've lived in small town America all my life and I have not seen this.

Maybe you just need to get out more.

How many times have you personally witnessed it?

As you very well know, I don't live in "small town America" and never have.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[aphid 0]

RMK

We see stuff like this in press every few days:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/officers-tackle-teen-walking-street_55fb585ae4b00310edf68606

While not all cops are bad/corrupt, there seems to be a great need to rethink the policing approach in the US.

Bear with me – first an analogy.

On my original home DZ (small single 182 operation) as time passed, my best friend and I became (courtesy of attrition) the two most senior and experienced people. One day, the winds were squirrely and he and I stood in the landing area, checking the windsocks and anemometer. For over two minutes we discussed back and forth if we should ground the students, each seeking the opinion of the other. Suddenly, he remarked that if we were standing there having the lengthy discussion, that fact alone indicated it was problematic enough to make the decision really easy.

I think all can agree that every western democracy has some people in law enforcement who are bad at their jobs, or even bullies. I think we could also agree that fortunately they are still in the minority of the total force.

In general terms we don’t fear our police in Canada. I’m equally sure the Brits, Germans, Dutch, Kiwi’s, Swedes, et al do not generally fear their police forces.

The fact that this forum continually demonstrates the very real concerns among average American citizens about their various enforcement agencies is akin to my analogy.

If you are repeatedly debating it… it IS a problem. A much broader problem apparently than some here would understand.

[Anvilbrother 0]

aphid

***We see stuff like this in press every few days:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/officers-tackle-teen-walking-street_55fb585ae4b00310edf68606

While not all cops are bad/corrupt, there seems to be a great need to rethink the policing approach in the US.

Bear with me – first an analogy.

On my original home DZ (small single 182 operation) as time passed, my best friend and I became (courtesy of attrition) the two most senior and experienced people. One day, the winds were squirrely and he and I stood in the landing area, checking the windsocks and anemometer. For over two minutes we discussed back and forth if we should ground the students, each seeking the opinion of the other. Suddenly, he remarked that if we were standing there having the lengthy discussion, that fact alone indicated it was problematic enough to make the decision really easy.

I think all can agree that every western democracy has some people in law enforcement who are bad at their jobs, or even bullies. I think we could also agree that fortunately they are still in the minority of the total force.

In general terms we don’t fear our police in Canada. I’m equally sure the Brits, Germans, Dutch, Kiwi’s, Swedes, et al do not generally fear their police forces.

The fact that this forum continually demonstrates the very real concerns among average American citizens about their various enforcement agencies is akin to my analogy.

If you are repeatedly debating it… it IS a problem. A much broader problem apparently than some here would understand.

We are repeatedly debating obama so by that thought process he is a problem.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Anvil,

Quote

We are repeatedly debating obama so by that thought process he is a problem.

I can remember how Pres. Truman was vilified when he fired Douglas MacArthur. Today, I think, most people consider him one of our best presidents.

We are talking/discussing the police in this country. Not any president, now or in the past. Keep your eyes on the ball, will you?

Jerry Baumchen

[Anvilbrother 0]

So. Now you are saying it is possible that we look back on this in the future and see that the police were really not as bad of a problem as we are making it out to be today.

It was your thought process that was wrong, not me pointing it out.

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[christelsabine 1]

Anvilbrother

So. Now you are saying it is possible that we look back on this in the future and see that the police were really not as bad of a problem as we are making it out to be today.

It was your thought process that was wrong, not me pointing it out.

I am speechless.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[jakee 1,254]

Anvilbrother

So. Now you are saying it is possible that we look back on this in the future and see that the police were really not as bad of a problem as we are making it out to be today.

It was your thought process that was wrong, not me pointing it out.

Not really. See, every President has been a point of constant disagreement and discussion. That doesn't necessarily mean that every President is a genuine problem, but that maybe the overly polarised two party system is a problem.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[normiss 620]

Yahtzee!