What is the defination of a Country

[Amazon 7]

aphid

******A bunch of people with enough weapons and determination to hold onto a territory. That's what.

WHAT A Canadian suggest that guns might be an answer to a problem???

You should apologize for that right now eh.

With all the time you've enjoyed in our lovely land, you of all people are aware that our real weapons are our biting, topical and sardonic wit as well as our disarmingly polite and charming demeanor.

Invaders would die of diabetic shock within weeks of first exposure to our syrupy sweetness.

Scratch that.

They'd get rather ill first but we would take care of them with our national healthcare insurance system. In their gratitude, they would simply depart after renaming only a few Canadian mountains.

[turtlespeed 212]

GeorgiaDon

Quote

Oh, and I made a statement of what I advocate, after asking a question of what he advocates.

You didn't "ask what I advocate", you accused me of favoring illegal immigration. Perhaps where you come from you ask questions by putting words in people's mouths.

In my experience, when people say illegal immigrants should "follow the law" to come to this country, they assume that legal channels exist and illegals just prefer to bypass them. My comment was intended to point out that for most people such channels for legal immigration do not exist.

I now realize that you were aware of this, and when you say people fleeing war, drug gangs, etc should "follow the law" that's just turtle code for "I don't give a fuck about anybody else, y'all should just stay in your shithole and die".

Personally, I think US immigration policy needs to be redone ASAP, with an emphasis on creating legal avenues for welcoming people who want to work, even if it is in jobs such as picking crops. I think it is incredibly hypocritical to depend on the illegal immigrant workforce to produce our crops (and other goods and services) while simultaneously vilifying such people for not following a legal process that does not exist.

It would also be a good idea if the US stopped making a habit of conducting proxy wars, installing dictators, and generally working to undermine the economies of Central and South American countries, and indeed everywhere in the world. When you examine why countries such as Guatemala and El Salvador are such basket cases, you don't have to dig too far to find US fingerprints. In many other cases, it is the combination of US demand for illicit drugs with US drug policy that is keeping the drug cartels in business.

Don

Perhaps in Canada, the question mark means something different.

So, you believe that a question mark does not mean what a question mark means here in the U.S.?

And, no, follow the law means follow the law, it isn't any kind of code for anything but follow the law.

When the law is changed, follow the changes.

I am in no way, whatsoever, against immigration. I am whole heartedly against ILLEGAL immigration.

I'm no one special. If I have had to follow the rules, and I still got the job done, so can everyone else. There is no excuse.

People say there is no avenue.

That is just absolutely untrue. I have lived it. I have helped do the paperwork. I have submitted the forms. I helped her study. I drove her to the immigration office, and I bought her dinner when she passed and became a citizen.

Unless you consider me some kind of better person than the rest of you, I don't see why I can do these things and you can't.

It seems that the populace here that welcomes illegal activity should step back and figure out just how fucking lazy they are, and get off their ass and help someone get citizenship.

Otherwise it just looks like you are yelling a maple tree, hoping the leaves won't turn and fall off.

If you have an issue with the law, don't gnash your teeth, do something.

I already did.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

Don't ignore the laws, change them, until then, enforce them.

But unlike any domestic issue, potential immigrants have no method of applying even indirect pressure on US lawmakers (or those of any other country.

You can't say to someone on a boat from Cuba or waiting at the Mexican border "if you don't like the law, change it" because they can't. They're outside the system.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[turtlespeed 212]

jakee

Quote

Don't ignore the laws, change them, until then, enforce them.

But unlike any domestic issue, potential immigrants have no method of applying even indirect pressure on US lawmakers (or those of any other country.

You can't say to someone on a boat from Cuba or waiting at the Mexican border "if you don't like the law, change it" because they can't. They're outside the system.

And if I wanted to immigrate to France, I'd have to go through the process.
Why is that different?

Let the Cubans on boats go to Mexico. See what happens with the immigration laws there.

I bet they'd have to follow the laws there as well.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[quade 3]

turtlespeed

Let the Cubans on boats go to Mexico.

We already "let" them do that, however, they choose to not go from one shit hole to another shit hole.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

And if I wanted to immigrate to France, I'd have to go through the process.
Why is that different?

Well, for one thing I'd imagine that your life in the US is good enough that you wouldn't even consider giving it up to live as an illegal in France. You have no reason to look outside the system.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[turtlespeed 212]

jakee

Quote

And if I wanted to immigrate to France, I'd have to go through the process.
Why is that different?

Well, for one thing I'd imagine that your life in the US is good enough that you wouldn't even consider giving it up to live as an illegal in France. You have no reason to look outside the system.

So sponsor them, or sponsor the, in England, or sponsor them somewhere else.

I did my share, have you?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[jakee 1,254]

I'm sorry, I'm not exactly sure how that follows the strand we were just discussing?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Quote

And my step mother is from South America. I helped her with all the paperwork needed.
It took time, but she is a citizen now.

Quote

I have lived it. I have helped do the paperwork. I have submitted the forms. I helped her study. I drove her to the immigration office, and I bought her dinner when she passed and became a citizen.

You helped a family member through the process. I stated in my earlier post that being sponsored by a family member who is a US citizen is by far the most common mechanism people use to legally immigrate.

However we were discussing people fleeing oppressed countries, and illegal immigrants in general. When you say such people should use legal avenues, and hold up your stepmother as an example, you are being disingenuous. I am sure you are well aware that very few of those people have access to the three routes of legal immigration: sponsorship by a qualified family member, sponsorship by an employer and possession of technical skills that are deemed to be needed in the US economy, or having $500,000 to invest in US businesses. Certainly the kid fleeing drug war violence in Guatemala (as one example) is unlikely to have either $500,000 or advanced technical skills.

When that kid shows up at the US border, what do you really mean when you say "follow the law"? Does it make any difference to you if you consider that the conditions in Guatemala are a consequence of US meddling in the Guatemalan government, support for the military dictatorship there, and ongoing financial support for drug gangs (a result of the US being the number 1 market for their products)?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[turtlespeed 212]

jakee

I'm sorry, I'm not exactly sure how that follows the strand we were just discussing?

Sponsor a potential illegal immigrant to get citizenship to France, or England, or here in the U.S.

But don't just stand there and bitch that the laws don't give any avenues.
Do something.

I did my share? She is now a U.S. Citizen.

Have you done anything personally about the system? Did you help anyone that is or was having to try to become a citizen? Monetarily? Socially? In anyway, personally?

It doesn't have to be here.

Why don't you help a Mexican looking to immigrate somewhere to become a British citizen? Seems pretty easy. Mostly all you need is a good working knowledge of English to start

You could sponsor someone looking to be an illegal immigrant here in the U.S. To go to France instead . . .http://m.wikihow.com/Become-a-Citizen-of-France] Again, it seems simple.

What is it about the U.S. That makes the rest of the world think we should, in this day and age, take in people that they themselves refuse or give access to citizenship?

What is it that makes the rest of liberal world so hypocritical?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[jakee 1,254]

OK, yeah that definitely has nothing to do with what we were just talking about.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[turtlespeed 212]

jakee

OK, yeah that definitely has nothing to do with what we were just talking about.

So the conversation changed. Afraid to answer the questions?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[jakee 1,254]

Well, because I was so unbelievably lucky to have been born into a prosperous nation within the EU, I'm currently living in another prosperous European nation having been subjected to absolutely no immigration checks whatsoever, where I don't even speak the language and so would be pretty useless to any less fortunate non-EU would be immigrant.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[turtlespeed 212]

jakee

Well, because I was so unbelievably lucky to have been born into a prosperous nation within the EU, I'm currently living in another prosperous European nation having been subjected to absolutely no immigration checks whatsoever, where I don't even speak the language and so would be pretty useless to any less fortunate non-EU would be immigrant.

money is worth more than excuses.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[jakee 1,254]

You've lost me again. What money should I be spending?

And how does it relate to how you're incredibly lucky not to have to contemplate illegally emigrating somewhere for a better life?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[turtlespeed 212]

jakee

You've lost me again. What money should I be spending?

And how does it relate to how you're incredibly lucky not to have to contemplate illegally emigrating somewhere for a better life?

Sponsor so.done less fortunate.
Help them.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,396]

>Other problems they may have with us can be settled through either the State
>Department or the Defense Department.

Well there ya go. And our problems with 'offending' countries can be settled the same way.

[muff528 3]

billvon

>Other problems they may have with us can be settled through either the State
>Department or the Defense Department.

Well there ya go. And our problems with 'offending' countries can be settled the same way.

If an oppressive country is generating refugees who are fleeing that oppression and entering into the US as refugees, then the State Dept. solution has already failed. That leaves the Defense Dept. solution (which, I assume you are advocating) ...or the Treasury Dept. solution. I think we should use embargo and trade sanctions before war when possible.

Using your example, I don't think refugees are fleeing oppression in the US and traveling to Finland (or anywhere else). Maybe a few emigrants, or even emigres are traveling there, but not refugees. If Finland has a "country-to-country" issue with our foreign policy or with any acts by our country that does not directly involve their nation (to the point that they are refusing immigrants from the US), I'd think that that is a job for a competent diplomacy. That's what the State Dept. is for. An example in the opposite direction would be our looking beyond China's (or Iran's ...or even Saudi Arabia's) human rights violations to the point that we don't even bring those travesties up when negotiating our relationships with those countries.