turtlespeed 212 #26 September 4, 2015 billvon>At no point has the flag ever represented the ideal of people migrating to >the US from oppressed countries. Never. Indeed, we now wave it when we wish to keep people from migrating to the US from oppressed countries. Why do you do that. I just ask them to follow the law.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #27 September 4, 2015 RonD1120Nope, you are wrong. Wow. You just can't argue with that sort of well reasoned rebuttal.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 58 #28 September 4, 2015 The OP was about country not flag. You guys get distracted so easily. I was educated in conservative America. It seems quite obvious to me that you younger folks received the liberal revision that cheated you from understanding what it means to be a patriotic American. It is sad, really sad.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,050 #29 September 4, 2015 billvon>At no point has the flag ever represented the ideal of people migrating to >the US from oppressed countries. Never. Indeed, we now wave it when we wish to keep people from ILLEGALLY migrating to the US from oppressed countries.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,050 #30 September 4, 2015 turtlespeed***Nope, you are incorrect on all points. Face palm Research Ron, research. Smh Start here. Then read this: http://www.usa-flag-site.org/history/ If that isn't good enough, Try this: http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagfact.html Even by your own image, "Old Glory" Today's US Flag is a recognized symbol of freedom - that in itself is an ideal for many in other countries.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #31 September 4, 2015 QuoteIt seems quite obvious to me that you younger folks received the liberal revision that cheated you from understanding what it means to be a patriotic American. Your version of patriotism is just jingoism. To be truly patriotic you have to understand and believe in the ideals set out in the Declaration and Constitution, things your tribe has forgotten or perverted. QuoteIt is sad, really sad. Indeed. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #32 September 4, 2015 QuoteThe OP was about country not flag. People weren't replying to the OP. People were replying to you.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #33 September 4, 2015 BIGUN ******Nope, you are incorrect on all points. Face palm Research Ron, research. Smh Start here. Then read this: http://www.usa-flag-site.org/history/ If that isn't good enough, Try this: http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagfact.html Even by your own image, "Old Glory" Today's US Flag is a recognized symbol of freedom - that in itself is an ideal for many in other countries. In response to these points: 1) The US is no exception. Period. 2) No our flag doesn't represent an ideal. It's a number of states (the stars) and the number of original colonies (the stripes). The colors are simply the colors of the previous country that controlled it. All other "ideals" are simply crap people made up in an attempt to justify the design. 3) At no point has the flag ever represented the ideal of people migrating to the US from oppressed countries. Never. 4) The requirements to entry into the US post date the creation of the flag by nearly a hundred years. In fact, the country was built in large part by people who simply wandered over from other countries lured by possible fortunes or forcibly brought here against their will. It was ONLY after the country was well establish by this labor force that any thought it would be a good idea to somehow cut back on that. Ron replied that he was wrong, or incorrect on all points. Point #1: the U.S. - USED - to be the exception, now, it's not.Point #2: subjective - if you don't believe it is an ideal, then it isn't. Point #1 lends itself to this. If you don't believe that the U.S. Is exceptional, you are like Y to make apologies for it and bow to show submission. Point #3: I have never seen any documentation that the Stars and Stripes represent sanctuary from oppressed countries. Point #4: this rings true, I don't actually know for sure, but it is what I have been taught. So, in fact, Rons statement that he was incorrect on all points is patently false.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #34 September 4, 2015 QuoteIf you don't believe that the U.S. Is exceptional, you are likey to make apologies for it and bow to show submission. Oh puhleeze. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #35 September 4, 2015 DanGQuoteIf you don't believe that the U.S. Is exceptional, you are likey to make apologies for it and bow to show submission. Oh puhleeze. Do you disagree?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #36 September 4, 2015 QuoteI just ask them to follow the law. However, the law says that there is no legal avenue of immigration available to the vast majority of people from oppressed countries. There are very few ways left to legally immigrate to the US. You can be sponsored by a family member who is a US citizen, such as your spouse or sibling; most who do immigrate come here under this (family reunification) program. Other than that, you can be sponsored for a green card by an employer if you have certain advanced technical skills and your employer has searched and been unable to find a qualified American for the job. You can also buy your way in by investing a minimum of $500,000 in USCIS-approved businesses. Your starving Irish potato farmer would find the door shut if the potato blight were to hit today, unlike the situation in the 1840s. For all but a privileged few (disclaimer: that includes me) "follow the law" means "the way is shut". Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #37 September 4, 2015 QuoteDo you disagree? Yes. You can believe that the US is not exceptional and still be patriotic, still love your country, still fight for your country, and still be proud of your country. If you need to believe that the US is super special and better than everywhere else in the world to do those things, the problem is with you. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #38 September 4, 2015 Quote If you don't believe that the U.S. Is exceptional, you are like Y to make apologies for it and bow to show submission. How do you define "exceptional"? If you mean it is a country that offers a decent chance (but no guarantee) at a good standard of living if you are willing to work for it, and a fairly substantial freedom to make your own choices, then the US is exceptional. If you mean it is a country that offers these things to a significantly greater degree than any other country on the planet, I'd have to disagree. If you mean it is a country that was chosen by God to be perfect in every way, so that nothing it does could ever be wrong, or that it is so perfect that nothing could be learned by looking at other countries, I'd strongly disagree. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,384 #39 September 4, 2015 >Why do you do that. I don't. But look at any anti-immigration candidate, and check how many times the flag appears on his "kick em all out" position page. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #40 September 4, 2015 billvon>Why do you do that. I don't. But look at any anti-immigration candidate, and check how many times the flag appears on his "kick em all out" position page. By "oppressed" country (oppressive?) are we talking about Mexico? Cuba? Virginia? UK? Nigeria? A Middle Eastern or European country? I think we should accept refugees from any county if they are fleeing "oppression". I also think that if we officially confer "refugee" status, the "offending" country should be subject to sanctions and be forced to pay reparations to us or any other country that accepts their refugees. Also, illegal immigrants are not necessarily refugees, but if they are given "refugee" status it should ..uh, trump, any "immigrant" status they might have...officially, that is. Otherwise, enter legally and follow our rules. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #41 September 4, 2015 GeorgiaDonQuoteI just ask them to follow the law. However, the law says that there is no legal avenue of immigration available to the vast majority of people from oppressed countries. There are very few ways left to legally immigrate to the US. You can be sponsored by a family member who is a US citizen, such as your spouse or sibling; most who do immigrate come here under this (family reunification) program. Other than that, you can be sponsored for a green card by an employer if you have certain advanced technical skills and your employer has searched and been unable to find a qualified American for the job. You can also buy your way in by investing a minimum of $500,000 in USCIS-approved businesses. Your starving Irish potato farmer would find the door shut if the potato blight were to hit today, unlike the situation in the 1840s. For all but a privileged few (disclaimer: that includes me) "follow the law" means "the way is shut". Don So, you advocate illegal immigration? I advocate following the law. I wouldn't mind a more relaxed immigration policy, with an allowance for easier deportation if the applicant gets sideways with the law. But the fact is, the law is the law, and it should be followed until it is changed, then follow the changed law. Don't ignore the laws, change them, until then, enforce them. Imagine if the FAA decided to just ignore minimum distance requirements for passenger airlines. Imagine if we were to just ignore traffic laws. Imagine if we were to ignore laws regarding discrimination. As far as Ireland goes, times have changed. The blight of the great famine would be off set by gofundme.com, and big time movie stars would have telethons.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,384 #42 September 4, 2015 > I think we should accept refugees from any county if they are fleeing "oppression" Would that include fleeing the rampant crime in Mexico? > I also think that if we officially confer "refugee" status, the "offending" country >should be subject to sanctions and be forced to pay reparations to us or any >other country that accepts their refugees. Think about that for a second. Let's say that Finland defined us as oppressors due to our support of war in the Middle East and our human rights violations (waterboarding.) Would you be willing to pay them reparations for any US citizen going there as an immigrant? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,116 #43 September 4, 2015 He didn't say that; don't reach for it. GeorgiaDon stated what the current requirements are, with some commentary. As an immigrant, he's probably familiar with the requirements. I know that it nearly a year for my sister-in-law to be able to come to the U.S. after my brother (her husband of 4 years, and the father of their 9-month-old child) came. She had to remain outside the country while securing her green card. He didn't get to be a father other than for isolated weekends for that time. By the time they finally came, whe was walking and talking. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #44 September 5, 2015 wmw999He didn't say that; don't reach for it. GeorgiaDon stated what the current requirements are, with some commentary. As an immigrant, he's probably familiar with the requirements. I know that it nearly a year for my sister-in-law to be able to come to the U.S. after my brother (her husband of 4 years, and the father of their 9-month-old child) came. She had to remain outside the country while securing her green card. He didn't get to be a father other than for isolated weekends for that time. By the time they finally came, whe was walking and talking. Wendy P. And my step mother is from South America. I helped her with all the paperwork needed. It took time, but she is a citizen now. I'm familiar with the requirements as well. You have no idea how much she feels the illegals are taking the easy way out and how opposed she is to just "letting it slide". It is a personal insult to her, that they will not enforce the law.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #45 September 5, 2015 wmw999He didn't say that; don't reach for it. GeorgiaDon stated what the current requirements are, with some commentary. As an immigrant, he's probably familiar with the requirements. I know that it nearly a year for my sister-in-law to be able to come to the U.S. after my brother (her husband of 4 years, and the father of their 9-month-old child) came. She had to remain outside the country while securing her green card. He didn't get to be a father other than for isolated weekends for that time. By the time they finally came, whe was walking and talking. Wendy P. Oh, and I made a statement of what I advocate, after asking a question of what he advocates. There was a question mark.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #46 September 5, 2015 billvon> I think we should accept refugees from any county if they are fleeing "oppression" Would that include fleeing the rampant crime in Mexico? Yes ...and no: YES - We might "designate" Mexico a refugee "producer" and treat them as such. And, as such, we would not allow refugees to return, send money, or travel in Mexico, until the Government of Mexico seriously addressed the problem. The nature of our relationship with Mexico should reflect their status until they change their behavior. ...like Cuba! --oh wait, bad example! NO - as things are at this time, Mexicans are free to travel back and forth like tourists, whether they are illegal immigrants or US citizens. As a single example, I have a relative who at first was an illegal alien, residing in this country and who is now a naturalized citizen. He and his family traveled either way, without fear and without problems, before and after he became a US citizen. Not just to TJ or Juarez, his family is way down near Mex City. ...and family down there are not in any hurry to move from there. Quote> I also think that if we officially confer "refugee" status, the "offending" country >should be subject to sanctions and be forced to pay reparations to us or any >other country that accepts their refugees. Think about that for a second. Let's say that Finland defined us as oppressors due to our support of war in the Middle East and our human rights violations (waterboarding.) Would you be willing to pay them reparations for any US citizen going there as an immigrant? I'm pretty sure that there are not many refugees fleeing the US for Finland. Other problems they may have with us can be settled through either the State Department or the Defense Department. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #47 September 5, 2015 Farm fields, 2 way roads, unpaved roads, shitty school system, lack of Costco, lack of malls, bunch of cows and other barn animal, makes a country, a country. Howdy y'all??Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aphid 0 #48 September 5, 2015 Amazon ***A bunch of people with enough weapons and determination to hold onto a territory. That's what. WHAT A Canadian suggest that guns might be an answer to a problem??? You should apologize for that right now eh.With all the time you've enjoyed in our lovely land, you of all people are aware that our real weapons are our biting, topical and sardonic wit as well as our disarmingly polite and charming demeanor. Invaders would die of diabetic shock within weeks of first exposure to our syrupy sweetness. Scratch that. They'd get rather ill first but we would take care of them with our national healthcare insurance system. In their gratitude, they would simply depart after renaming only a few Canadian mountains. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #49 September 5, 2015 QuoteOh, and I made a statement of what I advocate, after asking a question of what he advocates. You didn't "ask what I advocate", you accused me of favoring illegal immigration. Perhaps where you come from you ask questions by putting words in people's mouths. In my experience, when people say illegal immigrants should "follow the law" to come to this country, they assume that legal channels exist and illegals just prefer to bypass them. My comment was intended to point out that for most people such channels for legal immigration do not exist. I now realize that you were aware of this, and when you say people fleeing war, drug gangs, etc should "follow the law" that's just turtle code for "I don't give a fuck about anybody else, y'all should just stay in your shithole and die". Personally, I think US immigration policy needs to be redone ASAP, with an emphasis on creating legal avenues for welcoming people who want to work, even if it is in jobs such as picking crops. I think it is incredibly hypocritical to depend on the illegal immigrant workforce to produce our crops (and other goods and services) while simultaneously vilifying such people for not following a legal process that does not exist. It would also be a good idea if the US stopped making a habit of conducting proxy wars, installing dictators, and generally working to undermine the economies of Central and South American countries, and indeed everywhere in the world. When you examine why countries such as Guatemala and El Salvador are such basket cases, you don't have to dig too far to find US fingerprints. In many other cases, it is the combination of US demand for illicit drugs with US drug policy that is keeping the drug cartels in business. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,903 #50 September 5, 2015 Amazon ***A bunch of people with enough weapons and determination to hold onto a territory. That's what. WHAT A Canadian suggest that guns might be an answer to a problem??? You should apologize for that right now eh.We have a few weapons here. Properly stored for when we might need them. We even have a "well regulated militia". Wanna start sumpthin?Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
