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Black Male speaks about Illinois cop who was shot yesterday. (on topic)

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click here for the youtube video on Joe Evans speaking about Illinois cop who was shot yesterday

On topic:

1. Do you agree with Joe Evans denouncing Black Lives Matter movement because a group of people think their lives are better than another groups of people's lives? And why? (on topic)

2. Do you agree with Joe Evans that the Black Lives Matter movement is a racist movement? And why? (on topic)
What do protesters want? Dead cops! When do they want it? Every 2 weeks!

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I disagree that the movement is racist, or that it's saying that black lives matter more than white lives. There are, of course, people who go in that direction, just as there are whites who think that Christianity includes racism.

The reason for saying that it's black lives that matter is the widespread (still) perception apparently that only loves like one's own are worth living and saving.

There are objections to women's studies and African American studies and Asian studies, because it's all part of "history" already. The point in all those studies is that since white men wrote the books, those are the people most focused on. Same for black lives with non-black cops.

But yeah, there are totally assholes who go off the deep end, looking for justification for whatever stupid thing they want to do. We can't eliminate stuff that people use to justify stupid actions, there'd be nothing left.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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CameraNewbie

click here for the youtube video on Joe Evans speaking about Illinois cop who was shot yesterday

On topic:

1. Do you agree with Joe Evans denouncing Black Lives Matter movement because a group of people think their lives are better than another groups of people's lives? And why? (on topic)

2. Do you agree with Joe Evans that the Black Lives Matter movement is a racist movement? And why? (on topic)



Yes.

Yes.

As a friend of mine from High School put it, "there's only two kinds of people - us and them .

The moment one identifies a bloc as separate from the rest, their stance becomes racist/sexist/whatever.

EQUALITY is fine. Special rights, for anyone, is not.

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When "equality" has been defined, described, and implemented by a particular group, it's not always real equal. Not deliberate, just so.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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>2. Do you agree with Joe Evans that the Black Lives Matter movement is a
>racist movement?

No, no more so than the Suffragetes were sexist or Rosa Parks was racist. However, there are racist people WITHIN the Black Lives Matter movement, as there are in every organization.

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I don't see the "Black Lives Matter" folks as saying that their lives are better than other groups. Or more important.

I think they are saying "Our lives are not less important.

And, unfortunately, history has shown that black lives and their loss tends to be less important.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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wmw999

When "equality" has been defined, described, and implemented by a particular group, it's not always real equal. Not deliberate, just so.

Wendy P.



Be that as it may, the moment a group says "We're the same/we're different" in the same breath, you've lost me.

Some of the blatantly discriminatory policies of yore do not stand the test of fairness - voting, land ownership, etc..

WASPs did not get the GI Bill of Rights, but neither did Merchant Mariners, who were at least as likely to die due to enemy action as US Navy sailors.

I have no sympathy for people who, by choosing to align themselves against a superior force, are effectively hoist with their own petard. The Symbionese Liberation Army, for example, declared war against pretty much everyone else. They lost.

After Ferguson, I have taken note of various groups of youngsters walking blithely down the center of the street. If these people were all cited for violation of safety ordinances, there would appear to be a bias of one sort or another, even though the application of the law was uniform (I know, "It's illegal for a rich man to steal a loaf of bread just as it is for a poor man").

I support equal rights and responsibilities, but to most of those bemoaning their fate I call bullshit.


BSBD,

Winsor

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>Be that as it may, the moment a group says "We're the same/we're different"
>in the same breath, you've lost me.

Every group fighting for equal rights ever has used that argument. "We are the same/we are treated differently" is indeed a good description of unfair discrimination.

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billvon

>Be that as it may, the moment a group says "We're the same/we're different"
>in the same breath, you've lost me.

Every group fighting for equal rights ever has used that argument. "We are the same/we are treated differently" is indeed a good description of unfair discrimination.



Not quite. There is a huge difference between a group that says that their goal is to have equality and a group that demands special treatment. You are talking about the former, I refer to the latter.

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After watching the Bernie sanders speech interrupted like it was I would say that yes there is a racial component to some of the movement, no one can say all of it because that is immeasurable. If you have not seen that video you should watch it.

Here is a video of the black Panthers recently protesting outside a police station. I am researching how much they are influencing the BLM movement.
https://youtu.be/UZHFjxTsMx4

Some of the BLM protesters were shown on the BLM Twitter feed wearing shirts that said "Assata taught me". That right there is a sign of racism and pro cop violence from some of them.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

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Except they fundamentally are not the same thing.
We expect the bad guys to do bad things, no matter their race.
But that is NOT our expectation when it comes to police officers.
To me, it is a far bigger crime when an officer of the law commits a crime.
I think that's the message a lot of folks receive when they see the way the law enforcement community responds. It's almost taken as an insult.
Meanwhile, the victims of civilian crime are treated entirely different.

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billvon

>Be that as it may, the moment a group says "We're the same/we're different"
>in the same breath, you've lost me.

Every group fighting for equal rights ever has used that argument. "We are the same/we are treated differently" is indeed a good description of unfair discrimination.



If it's true. Statistics that factor in all aspects, especially socioeconomic status, are the true test.
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

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I think this is where the "you can say anything with statistics" saying comes in. Statistics makes statements within a defined population.. If the sample was not a fair sample across the population, then the statistics don't represent the stated population, they represent the sampled population.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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So that as long as it's stated that preferential treatment previously reserved for one group is not supposed to happen any more, one just goes on from there, and everything's OK?

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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wmw999

I think this is where the "you can say anything with statistics" saying comes in. Statistics makes statements within a defined population.. If the sample was not a fair sample across the population, then the statistics don't represent the stated population, they represent the sampled population.

Wendy P.



Correct. Statistics can be made to say anything, unless they are unbiased, especially when it comes to DNA criteria such as sex and/or race.
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

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winsor

***>Be that as it may, the moment a group says "We're the same/we're different"
>in the same breath, you've lost me.

Every group fighting for equal rights ever has used that argument. "We are the same/we are treated differently" is indeed a good description of unfair discrimination.



Not quite. There is a huge difference between a group that says that their goal is to have equality and a group that demands special treatment. You are talking about the former, I refer to the latter.

No, you're not. You're assuming that the group that says the former means the latter.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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wmw999

I disagree that the movement is racist, or that it's saying that black lives matter more than white lives. There are, of course, people who go in that direction, just as there are whites who think that Christianity includes racism.



100% agree with Wendy.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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billvon

>There is a huge difference between a group that says that their goal is to have
>equality and a group that demands special treatment.

Definitely. Thus #blacklivesaremoreimportant would be racist; #blacklivesmatter, less so.



You have a point, after a fashion.

If it turns out that, across the board, the treatment of individuals engaging in specific proscribed behavior is identical, but the objection is ONLY to the treatment of one group, the objection rings hollow.

Accepted behavior in different populations is not uniform. Mormons have different issues than do Baptists, Vietnamese are not interchangeable with Koreans, and so forth.

In Buddy Hackett's standup routine, he starts off with "Two Jewish guys..."

"What? It doesn't have to be Jewish guys, it could be anybody."

"Anyhow, two Irish guys are walking into the Synagogue and..."

Taking into account social norms, much of what appears to be the case at first blush turns out to be wide of the mark.

Thus, when you have 10 people shot to death under similar circumstances, and only those of a particular population group are under consideration, you've lost your audience.

BTW, Michael Brown was "unarmed" in the same sense as is a charging rhino. The officer should have been given a medal for managing to drop him.


BSBD,

Winsor

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Quote

If it turns out that, across the board, the treatment of individuals engaging in specific proscribed behavior is identical, but the objection is ONLY to the treatment of one group, the objection rings hollow.



Yes, "if".

But it isn't.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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>If it turns out that, across the board, the treatment of individuals engaging
>in specific proscribed behavior is identical, but the objection is ONLY to the
>treatment of one group, the objection rings hollow.

Agreed. However, that does not seem to be the case, as several studies have shown. Here's an example:

=============
Study finds Boston police target African-Americans disproportionately

In Boston, 25% of population is black, but 63% of police stops involve blacks, study finds

By Marina Carver

Updated 6:00 PM ET, Thu October 9, 2014

A scathing review of policing in Boston found that in a city where about a quarter of the population is African-American, two-thirds of police stops involved black residents, according to the American Civil Liberties Union.

The report, titled "Black, Brown, and Targeted," is based on the preliminary results of a study commissioned by the Boston Police Department -- which analyzed 204,000 "Field Interrogation and Observation" (FIO) reports from police officers between 2007 and 2010.

"The fact that blacks make up about 25% of Boston's population, but are stopped 63% of the time raises serious concerns of racially biased policing," said Nusrat Choudhury, an attorney with the ACLU Racial Justice Program.

The findings come in the wake of troubling incidents across the nation in which police actions disproportionately targeted African-Americans in cities like New York, where questionable police tactics have been captured on video.
==============
http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/09/us/boston-police-stop-frisk/

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"The fact that blacks make up about 25% of Boston's population, but are stopped 63% of the time raises serious concerns of racially biased policing," said Nusrat Choudhury, an attorney with the ACLU Racial Justice Program.

Statements like this are founded on the assumption that police stops are (or should be) comparable to a random sampling of the population, so any one individuals chance of being stopped is exactly the same as any other individual. Of course, the ACLU would also be upset if the police actually did stop people at random, with no reason other than "today it's just your turn".

It is of course possible that some conscious or unconscious bias is at work. It is also possible that certain demographics are disproportionately likely to present valid reasons to be pulled over. These could include things like no tail lights, cracked windshield, no license plate, driving with headlights off after dark, speeding, excessively loud music, and so on, up to driving a vehicle that matches the description of a suspect vehicle near to where a crime has been reported. In my city we have a "no cruising" ordinance in the downtown area, which allows police to ticket you if they see you drive around the block more than twice within 10 minutes. I think it's a dumb law, as you may just be looking for a place to park, but it was intended to discourage "cruising".

A lot of these things are (it seems to me) related to poverty; people with little money drive old worn out cars and may not have money to immediately fix a burned out headlight or a cracked windshield. Some of them are, frankly, related to age and cultural attitudes, such as playing music so loud the bass makes you think there is an earthquake happening and you are five cars back from the source of the noise. As we all know there is a relationship between wealth and race in this country. Where I live (college town) it seems most of the white kids are college students whose parents have provisioned them with a car worth about ten time what I can afford as a mere professor. If you see a 1970s era ragged-out Cadillac with one headlight, no functioning backup lights, no plates (except maybe an obviously ancient "Tag Applied For"), the hood held down with a piece of rope, and shiny new chrome hubcaps, the odds are overwhelming that the driver will be black. A stereotype for sure, but one you can see every day around here. Who is more likely to be pulled over, the person driving the old Cadillac with a half-dozen safety violations, or the person driving a fresh off the lot Lexus?

It is possible that there is a bias at work driving the police to target minorities. I just don't think you can say that so definitively based on nothing other than a comparison to the demographic makeup of the population. I think you would have to actually examine the probable cause for the stops. You could also do an experiment, such as have white or black drivers drive the same vehicle with the same red flags around town for similar amounts of time. If the black drivers get pulled over more often than the white drivers do, driving the same vehicle in the same neighborhoods, then you would have a strong argument that bias was at work.

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

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normiss

Except they fundamentally are not the same thing.
We expect the bad guys to do bad things, no matter their race.
But that is NOT our expectation when it comes to police officers.
To me, it is a far bigger crime when an officer of the law commits a crime.
I think that's the message a lot of folks receive when they see the way the law enforcement community responds. It's almost taken as an insult.
Meanwhile, the victims of civilian crime are treated entirely different.



It seems I often disagree with a lot of your opinions in regards to law enforcement, but dang your thoughts here (we expect bad guys to do bad things, and we do not expect that from law enforcement) is absolutely spot on. I totally agree. I also know there are a ton of hard working cops out there that only want to do the right thing.

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kallend

***I disagree that the movement is racist, or that it's saying that black lives matter more than white lives. There are, of course, people who go in that direction, just as there are whites who think that Christianity includes racism.



100% agree with Wendy.

I agree, as well. Unfortunately, BLM has been perverted on all sides.

If you think black lives matter means nothing else matters, then the problem is with you. My kids matter. It doesn't mean my wife doesn't matter. And isn't it kind of ironic that the white racists and black racists read blacklivesmatter to be the same message?


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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