2 journalists shot dead on live TV in Virginia.

[rehmwa 2]

quade

If you want to try to somehow legally parse the difference between this guy and a nutcase don't let me or anyone else stop you, but I think for the average, reasonable man, there simply is no difference.

this ^^^^ absolutely

I think this whole string of "Evil" vs "Insane" is really pointless.
It's mainly grounded in the false assumption that insanity creates a rationalization for the acts. or at least a more forgiving response after the fact.... bullshit to both


Whatever the 'reason' for an act, the act itself, and the likelihood of the perpetrator repeating the act is what we need to react to.

insanity does not necessarily mean:

1 - one can be cured
2 - one shouldn't be punished for the safety of all
3 - one should be forgiven
4 - one may eventually be fit for society

these are totally separate things

now, the 'legal' definition of insanity? I don't know about that, but this discussion isn't about that from what I'm reading.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

lawrocket

I'll put it this way: kallend is proposing the same shit that hasn't worked because it isn't based on any realistic idea of the medicine behind it. Perhaps it's time to change our concept of what "ill" is.

this is really well thought out, especially with the acknowledgment of how a sociopath truly works.

edit: having read on past the ones I posted to. with a couple exceptions, the thread's taken a really insightful turn in discussion. wish more threads would do that....

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[JohnnyMarko 1]

SkyDekker

Quote

All this talk about making mental health services available. You can't make people use them.

Exactly, no need for any healthcare, not like you can force people to use it. So what's the point?

You can force people to use it.

Source: Was forced to use it.

[lawrocket 3]

SkyDekker

Quote

All this talk about making mental health services available. You can't make people use them.

Exactly, no need for any healthcare, not like you can force people to use it. So what's the point?

I understand that it comes off as coarse. Mental health care is available. But the problem is right there. Convincing a crazy person that he is crazy and should seek help shows the problem right in the task.

The U.S. used to treat people whether they wanted treatment or not. And even whether they needed it or not. Person has a behavioral issue then give that person a lobotomy. The U.S. would also simply warehouse people with alleged mental health issues. Put them in some hospital and keep them there in perpetuity.

The Supreme Court back in 1975 held that people cannot simply be detained and forced into treatment on the mere basis of a mental illness. O'Connor was unanimous.

Think of it this way. If you've ever known anyone who was in need of some help and tried to get the person to get treatment then you understand the difficulty.

Interventions are actually a perfect example of the limits. Hey, this person is out of control. This person has an illness and refuses to get this illness treated. Can one just call the police and bring a person in to detox?

Can you force an adult to get cancer treatment? Can you force an adult to go to rehab? Can you force an adult to lose weight and exercise? Can you force an adult into treatment for depression?

This is the issue. Yes, I would like to see more mental health treatment on the front end. But in the U.S. We cannot force it unless that person presents an immediate threat to self or others. And then the person can only be treated until the crisis ends.

Which is why I believe that it is more important than anything to stop the stigma. For an example of how politics runs this, last year the Washington Supreme Court found that warehousing people with mental illnesses in the ER was not cool. Turns out that Washington was cutting healthcare spending and made a massive cut to mental health. So psychiatric beds weren't available. And so mental health patients were just kept in the ER, given low priority on triage and just waited. And waited. And waited.

Why does mental health get the first slash? Because the mentally ill are not viewed too highly.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Anvilbrother 0]

What constitutionally acceptable law or healthcare mandate would have stopped this shooting, or others similar?

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[Anvilbrother 0]

Let's just go back to the late 1800's. Look at this list of reasons to be admitted to the insane asylum.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[Amazon 7]

You hit the nail right on the head there.... funding.... and until there is a better system available to actually do anything with them financially there will be plenty of these time bombs among us ready to go off for a myriad of reasons... like this individual stating.. he was a powder keg waiting around to go BOOM/

[rehmwa 2]

Funding, new laws, better system available, etc etc etc - same requests as for every other perceived and real problems of today - even if this reaction and expectation can be considered to be a big cause of so many issues in the first place

what about a society where we are consistently developing narcissistic assholes that feel entitled to a certain role and when they don't get it, then have a tantrum, react violently, and blame it on politics and the social issues of the moment

it crosses boundaries of race, genders, social and political persuasions, age......everyone

this theme is the current norm, this guy just took it to the next level

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[JohnnyMarko 1]

I don't know, why are you asking me?

[kallend 1,623]

www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/27/inside-vester-lee-flanagan-life/

Yep. Perfectly normal, mentally healthy guy.

The crazed gunman who executed on live morning TV two local news journalists who worked at his former station lived surrounded by publicity photos of himself, in a squalid apartment awash with gay porn and sex toys.

Vester Lee Flanagan, 41, who went by the professional name Bryce Williams, continued to live in Roanoke, Va., despite having been fired from local TV station WDBJ more than two years ago. His continued presence in the area had an unsettling effect on his former co-workers.

"A couple of months ago, somebody told me, 'Bryce is still in town,'" former WDBJ reported Justin McLeod told the Roanoke Times. "Several former colleagues were bothered by the fact that he still lived in town."

...

A neighbor told the Mirror that Flanagan was “rude and arrogant to everyone and anyone” and would sometimes throw cat feces at the dwellings of neighbors he was in disputes with.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JohnnyMarko 1]

What's wrong with gay porn and sex toys?
The parts you quoted do paint the picture of someone who could be mentally ill...sad

[yoink 321]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34070393

Quote

An ex-TV journalist who shot dead two ex-colleagues live on air in Virginia had been ordered to seek medical help by his bosses, memos reveal.

Internal memos from Dan Dennison, then news chief of WDBJ7, show concerns about Vester Flanagan's "aggressive" behaviour towards colleagues.

They indicate the station tried to help him before firing him in February 2013.

[normiss 622]

Standard media approach it seems.
Try and throw as much dirt as you can find to make the perp look even worse.

[Anvilbrother 0]

You were the last one in the list when I composed the post wasn't directed at you, but everyone.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[SkyDekker 1,121]

Quote

This is the issue. Yes, I would like to see more mental health treatment on the front end. But in the U.S. We cannot force it unless that person presents an immediate threat to self or others. And then the person can only be treated until the crisis ends.

Which is why I believe that it is more important than anything to stop the stigma.

Agreed fully. Your original comment sounded more along the lines of: there is no need for mental healthcare since you cannot force people to go anyways.

Ending the stigma and making it much easier to obtain will go a long way.

(No, that doesn't necessarily mean it would have prevented this shooting Anvil....that is such a silly argument to begin with. Very few things in life are 100% certain)

[Anvilbrother 0]

Well what do you propose that would have stopped this then?

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[kallend 1,623]

JohnnyMarko

What's wrong with gay porn and sex toys?

Nothing at all. Just quoting the article.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

Anvilbrother

Well what do you propose that would have stopped this then?

There is nothing that would have 100% guaranteed to stop this, other than simply executing the shooter prior t it happening for having a gun.

Silly, yes.

But, there not being a solution that is 100% effective is also not a reason to do nothing. You would never do anything.

It is an incredibly childish response, usually followed by: see you can't think of anything reasonable that would have guaranteed to stop this. All you liberal gun-o-phobe are morons.

Reducing or eliminating the stigma around mental health problems, combined with easier access to mental health professionals could very well have a positive effect on violent outbursts such as the one being discussed in this thread. It would definitely have a positive effect on society in general IMHO.

[Anvilbrother 0]

All I asked was for you to provide something that would have prevented this. You are the one to bring up the 100% success rate not me, and that is what makes your arguement silly.

Who here is unwilling to do anything to stop this? Name them, that's twice today you have stated that.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[billvon 2,395]

>bullshit. targeting civilians is a war crime,

So you believe Tibbetts is a war criminal?

>and as for paul tibbetts, my understanding is there were 66,000 killed by the bomb

The estimates range from 90,000 to 150,000.

[lawrocket 3]

kallend

www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/27/inside-vester-lee-flanagan-life/

Yep. Perfectly normal, mentally healthy guy.

The crazed gunman who executed on live morning TV two local news journalists who worked at his former station lived surrounded by publicity photos of himself, in a squalid apartment awash with gay porn and sex toys.

So a dingy dirty flat, like that which is typified by the stereotypical housing project, is an indication of someone not mentally healthy? The guy is living in a slum type apartment. I reckon every unkempt place must mean a person is crazy.

And the presence of gay porn is also indicative? Did Rick Santorum take over your dz.com account?

Quote

Vester Lee Flanagan, 41, who went by the professional name Bryce Williams, continued to live in Roanoke, Va., despite having been fired from local TV station WDBJ more than two years ago. His continued presence in the area had an unsettling effect on his former co-workers.

"A couple of months ago, somebody told me, 'Bryce is still in town,'" former WDBJ reported Justin McLeod told the Roanoke Times. "Several former colleagues were bothered by the fact that he still lived in town."

Ah. So hey we're bothered that the asshole was still around. Okay.

Quote

A neighbor told the Mirror that Flanagan was “rude and arrogant to everyone and anyone” and would sometimes throw cat feces at the dwellings of neighbors he was in disputes with.

Hmmm. A guy is rude and arrogant. Must be nuts. It can't just be a personality thing.

Is there just no such thing as a cold blooded killer anymore? Is there no such thing as just a bad seed?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

Quote

All I asked was for you to provide something that would have prevented this.

And I have.

Quote

You are the one to bring up the 100% success rate not me

Because your reply will have an example outlinging how the suggestion would not have worked in this scenario.

Better health care: Oh well you can't force him to go, so you don't know if it would have helped this guy specifically.
No guns: well, you still could get guns on the black market.

Quote

Who here is unwilling to do anything to stop this? Name them, that's twice today you have stated that.

You are. If you aren't, then provide something that would have prevented this.

[Anvilbrother 0]

Quote

Because your reply will have an example outlinging how the suggestion would not have worked in this scenario.

Oh really well you crystal ball is broken because i diddn't.


As for prevention. Let's get all the details and see who all knew about his mental state first. I am betting his co workers or family knew something was going on but did not act.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[lawrocket 3]

billvon

>bullshit. targeting civilians is a war crime,

So you believe Tibbetts is a war criminal?

>and as for paul tibbetts, my understanding is there were 66,000 killed by the bomb

The estimates range from 90,000 to 150,000.

It is a war crime. Now. Back in the day, civilians were considered legitimate war targets. That changed a lot in 1949. Now, only civilians building or maintaining military equipment or even doing research (yes, universities can be legitimate military targets for this reason) are considered as such. Interstate highways were designed for mobilization so missiles or bombs taking out bridges are targets. Too bad for any civilian on the route.

I grew up by the Seal Beach Naval Weapons Station. That place is a legitimate military target. If that place ever went up, yes, there would be significant collateral damage. Like putting PEPCON to shame right next to the 405.

So one has to look at civilian casualties with a sense of cynicism

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

Anvilbrother

Quote

Because your reply will have an example outlinging how the suggestion would not have worked in this scenario.

Oh really well you crystal ball is broken because i diddn't.


As for prevention. Let's get all the details and see who all knew about his mental state first. I am betting his co workers or family knew something was going on but did not act.

Yes they did. The company he worked for ordered him to get medical help.

But in a larger sense, you don't devise laws and regulations to try and prevent one specific case. So, what do you propose would prevent these types of incidents from occuring?