2 journalists shot dead on live TV in Virginia.

[kallend 1,621]

billvon

>Mentally healthy people don't do what this guy did, no matter how upset they
>may be.

Mentally healthy people do, and have done, far worse. During wartime we call such people "heroes."

Picking nits, what this guy did was cold blooded murder of fellow countrymen in peacetime, not enemies in wartime.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,380]

>what this guy did was cold blooded murder of fellow countrymen in peacetime

Yep. And had we been at war, and they had been the enemy (even if they had also been his fellows) he would have gotten a medal for exactly the same action.

We consider Paul Tibbets mentally healthy. He killed hundreds of thousands in cold blood.

Calling specific killings "a sign of mental illness" to argue for getting guns away from them is a cop out. Some mentally ill people are killers - but killing alone does not make one mentally ill. Many perfectly sane, functioning people are killers, and whether they are heroes or criminals depends entirely upon who they kill.

[lawrocket 3]

Interesting. Do you suggest that evil in the name of Madoff was mental illness? Or what about Ken Lay? Was he just in need of a little medication?

Apparently this poor fella who capped those reporters wasn't malevolent at all. He just needed some hug therapy?

I'd suggest you take a look at what the professionals see. Ted Bundy just needed a support group?

2-5 percent of the population is sociopathic. They lack empathy or compassion for anybody. Give that person therapy? They use it to learn more about how to be better manipulator.

You don't look at assholes who steal people's livelihoods and fortunes as being mentally ill. I don't think I've ever seen you mention anything about getting them treatment, screening before they are allowed to sit on Boards of Directors, etc.

But they are the same species with different wants. They are users. They are about themselves with no concept of empathy for the pin of others.

Whether they are murderers or white collar hucksters they are the same personality type. You don't know the difference because it's not your area of expertise. I get it.

But having a wife whom I adore being around people in a hospital who should be in prison? People who are being called mentally ill because lawyer douchebags who decided that rather than giving evil rapists and child molesters lengthy prison sentences, they should put them in a hospital ONCE THEY HAVE SERVED IN PRISON in order to be treated for some disease?

Yeah. I become intensely worried. And am fortunate enough to develop a better understanding of how popular stigmas and ideas of "mental illness" are as bullshit as popular understand of anything. You're falling victim to it, as well.

Understandable. Trust me. I used to think like you. I see your point of view. But when you start giving white collar criminals the same deference you give shooters, then I'll start listening.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 1,621]

lawrocket

Interesting. Do you suggest that evil in the name of Madoff was mental illness? Or what about Ken Lay? Was he just in need of a little medication?

Apparently this poor fella who capped those reporters wasn't malevolent at all. He just needed some hug therapy?

I'd suggest you take a look at what the professionals see. Ted Bundy just needed a support group?

2-5 percent of the population is sociopathic. They lack empathy or compassion for anybody. Give that person therapy? They use it to learn more about how to be better manipulator.

Antisocial personality disorder is indeed a mental illness, recognized as such by the medical profession.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

kallend

Quaint concept; evil as some supernatural malevolent force not in the realm of physical reality. Amazing that notions about evil as an objective, reality-based force persist in the 21st century and continue to be imputed broadly to those suffering from mental illness.

Mentally healthy people don't do what this guy did, no matter how upset they may be.

So what particular mental illness was this guy suffering from?

Bi-Polar? Depression?

While I agree that well-adjusted, mature, rational people don't do this sort of thing, I don't see any real "Mental Illness" present. He was pissed off, he decided to "get them" and did.
Just like Dorner in L.A. He "had enough" and was going to "make them pay." Regardless of the consequences.

"Evil" is just a handy name to apply to it. But it fits very well.

I agree almost entirely with Lawrockets posts on this. Some people are just "bad apples." Genetics, upbringing, experiences (outside of childhood), whatever.
They can't be "treated" or "cured." We can only try to catch them before they do too much damage and put them away to protect society (not gonna get into the death penalty arguments here).

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[kallend 1,621]

He was an angry, unsuccessful man. He sent a rambling manifesto to a news media organization. It was a list of grievances: racial discrimination, sexual harassment, bullying by co-workers, family alienation. He expressed admiration for the Columbine and Virginia Tech shooters.

“I’ve been a human powder keg for a while just waiting to go BOOM!!!! at any moment”, he wrote.

He did everything he could to maximize exposure to his actions. He timed it so that it would be on live television and back-stopped that video feed with a shooter’s-eye video. He uploaded his work to social media, and within a few hours turned his gun on himself.

These are NOT the actions of a mentally healthy individual.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,380]

Quote

He was an angry, unsuccessful man. He sent a rambling manifesto to a news media organization. It was a list of grievances: racial discrimination, sexual harassment, bullying by co-workers, family alienation. He expressed admiration for the Columbine and Virginia Tech shooters. . . .
He did everything he could to maximize exposure to his actions. He timed it so that it would be on live television . . .

I can think of half a dozen politicians and media icons who behave that way. Are they all mentally ill?

[lawrocket 3]

billvon

Quote

He was an angry, unsuccessful man. He sent a rambling manifesto to a news media organization. It was a list of grievances: racial discrimination, sexual harassment, bullying by co-workers, family alienation. He expressed admiration for the Columbine and Virginia Tech shooters. . . .
He did everything he could to maximize exposure to his actions. He timed it so that it would be on live television . . .

I can think of half a dozen politicians and media icons who behave that way. Are they all mentally ill?

I am convinced that there are people who simply cannot believe that people can think this way. A person kills someone that person must be a nutter.

Subtlety and nuance are lost. I understand how he can't bring himself to grasp it. It's not a defect on his part. It's actually more humanizing for him.

I wish I was so blessedly ignorant...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[quade 3]

If you want to try to somehow legally parse the difference between this guy and a nutcase don't let me or anyone else stop you, but I think for the average, reasonable man, there simply is no difference.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[lawrocket 3]

As an aside I'll note that the evidence is hat he purchased the gun legally. Why was it legal?

Because he knew how to straddle the line. Was he arrested? Did he have any violence in his prior life? No. It didn't suit his purposes. HE knew when to make people afraid. And he knew when to back off. He toed the line and didn't cross it. He knew the line. He placed himself right up against it.

Did he ever seek mental health help? No! That would not help him. In fact, it would make things harder for him.

Were people afraid of him? Yes. Enough for them to seek a useless protective order? Nope. He knew not to push it that far. That would count against him. Scare them JUST ENOUGH. That means his record is clean. Background is clean. Yay.

But then he can bide his time. Wait a week? A year? Nope. Wait and plan for the opportunity. Looking for a reason. Then get the gun. Go for what he wants. Plan it out. Make a spectacle. And brag about it.

The sociopath is the danger. The psychopath is the danger. And they are the ones who know how to slip through the cracks. The sociopath is the one I fear. Not the nutter.

The sociopath.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

quade

If you want to try to somehow legally parse the difference between this guy and a nutcase don't let me or anyone else stop you, but I think for the average, reasonable man, there simply is no difference.

The legal parsing? The law is based on a 19th century understanding of the mental health. It hasn't gone any further since then.

The law is the problem. The law is based on stigma. The law is based on the idiocy of politics more than it is based on the reality of the medicine behind it.

Imagine basing rules based on physics that were conceived fifty years before Einstein came up with relativity. That's where law is.

Why? Because the public understanding of this stuff is right where you are. Where kallend is. We get nowhere with willful ignorance of the People. Indeed, it is entirely counterproductive.

I'll put it this way: kallend is proposing the same shit that hasn't worked because it isn't based on any realistic idea of the medicine behind it. Perhaps it's time to change our concept of what "ill" is. It'l like a person blaming an abundance of trees for global warming. The more you cut them down the the worse the problem gets.

And proposing cutting down more trees because we just haven't tried hard enough.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Paul,

Quote

but I think for the average, reasonable man, there simply is no difference

And I agree with you. However, lawrocket's post just below yours is very telling. Some of these people are just a time bomb waiting to go off.

Here is an interesting one from 40 yrs ago: http://www.ospmemorial.org/holcomb.html

Some people simply cannot 'just go on with their lives' it would seen. IMO these are the people that we simply cannot ferret out to prevent these tragedies.

Jerry Baumchen

[Bolas 5]

Let's hypothetically say that there's a test to determine if someone is a psychopath or sociopath.

Should all be required to take it or just those that are convicted of a crime?

If one is determined to be either, as there is no cure or treatment, what, if anything, should be done to protect society from the person if they have not yet done anything illegal?

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[ryoder 1,381]

Bolas

Let's hypothetically say that there's a test to determine if someone is a psychopath or sociopath.

Well, maybe there is: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-neuroscientist-who-discovered-he-was-a-psychopath-180947814/

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Bolas 5]

Anvilbrother

1150AM WJBO said their reports were that the new station fired him because of anger issues, he claimed racism, and the baptist church shooting as the tipping point that caused him to shoot them.

Wait a second. He's black, claiming racism, had anger issues, killed two people...

AND he's not being referred to as a thug?

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Amazon 7]

Bolas

Let's hypothetically say that there's a test to determine if someone is a psychopath or sociopath.

Should all be required to take it or just those that are convicted of a crime?

If one is determined to be either, as there is no cure or treatment, what, if anything, should be done to protect society from the person if they have not yet done anything illegal?

Make it part of the standard testing in schools from gradeschool on.

Identify problems at an early age and begin whatever mitigation might be available...

then watch them very closely. I do not like this premise...but these people show who they are early and often.

[billvon 2,380]

>If you want to try to somehow legally parse the difference between this guy
>and a nutcase don't let me or anyone else stop you, but I think for the
>average, reasonable man, there simply is no difference.

I think there is, and I think most people have no problem telling the difference.

Guy A: Desires fame. Plots a crime. Manages the various parts of the crime to improve the chances of reaching his goal. Hides his plan from people, assembles the various parts of it, plans a time to do it then executes his plan.

Guy B: Hears voices in his head. He tells his friends he wants to shoot the black men in the helicopters, and his friends say "no, there are no black men in helicopters, go see a shrink man!" Eventually he cannot tune out the voices in his head and decides they are coming from a chip the government implanted in his head - and thus if the government wants him to kill black men, he's going to do it and he will be forgiven. He finds a gun and starts shooting.

I think an average, reasonable man would have no problem telling which person is a simple criminal and which is a nutcase.

[lawrocket 3]

Bolas

Let's hypothetically say that there's a test to determine if someone is a psychopath or sociopath.

Should all be required to take it or just those that are convicted of a crime?

If one is determined to be either, as there is no cure or treatment, what, if anything, should be done to protect society from the person if they have not yet done anything illegal?

That's where the Constitution comes in.

All this talk about making mental health services available. You can't make people use them.

And considering the massive disincentives, ie, a person is stupid enough to seek mental health care that person loses rights to guns, etc, then we have a perfect storm. Policy is to have undiagnosed people out there. Rather than have people go on and get diagnosed and treated. Policy is to destroy anyone who does.

Plenty of people posting here are are good idea of why this policy is in effect.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[skypuppy 1]

billvon

>what this guy did was cold blooded murder of fellow countrymen in peacetime

Yep. And had we been at war, and they had been the enemy (even if they had also been his fellows) he would have gotten a medal for exactly the same action.

We consider Paul Tibbets mentally healthy. He killed hundreds of thousands in cold blood.

Calling specific killings "a sign of mental illness" to argue for getting guns away from them is a cop out. Some mentally ill people are killers - but killing alone does not make one mentally ill. Many perfectly sane, functioning people are killers, and whether they are heroes or criminals depends entirely upon who they kill.

bullshit. targeting civilians is a war crime, doesn't matter if you're at war. He would not have gotten a medal for those murders...

and as for paul tibbetts, my understanding is there were 66,000 killed by the bomb, with possibly another 6,000 dying of radiation after (they may have been included in the initial 66k for all I know)... he didn't kill hundreds of thousands...

For a scientist, you're not very exact...

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

Or what about Ken Lay? Was he just in need of a little medication?

Strawman. No one suggested that all mental illness can be cured with pills.

Quote

Apparently this poor fella who capped those reporters wasn't malevolent at all. He just needed some hug therapy?

False dichotomy, followed by another straw man.

Quote

2-5 percent of the population is sociopathic. They lack empathy or compassion for anybody. Give that person therapy? They use it to learn more about how to be better manipulator.

That's a lot of mentally ill people floating around...

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kallend 1,621]

billvon

Quote

He was an angry, unsuccessful man. He sent a rambling manifesto to a news media organization. It was a list of grievances: racial discrimination, sexual harassment, bullying by co-workers, family alienation. He expressed admiration for the Columbine and Virginia Tech shooters. . . .
He did everything he could to maximize exposure to his actions. He timed it so that it would be on live television . . .

I can think of half a dozen politicians and media icons who behave that way. Are they all mentally ill?

The ones who shoot their former co-workers on live TV, video themselves doing it, and then shoot themselves - YES.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,621]

lawrocket

I am convinced that there are people who simply cannot believe that people can think this way. A person kills someone that person must be a nutter.

This wasn't a simple murder. It was orchestrated for maximum effect, preceded by a written manifesto, and followed by suicide. Perp was a nutcase.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[RonD1120 58]

SkyDekker

***

Quote

Call it fuck all for what I care....just stop letting them get guns to act out their evil insanity shit on innocent people.
To me, that level of evil intent IS a broken human. It's not normal.

The really insane part? That we do nothing.
Every god damn time.

What do you suggest?

Derek V

Make guns illegal.

Summary execution of anybody found to have a gun.

If nothing else it would help with over-population.

Kill everyone with a gun, yeah, that's the answer.

And, you call me bloodthirsty.

Just signs of the times. As lawrocket stated, it is evil and evil is gaining ground.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

kallend

***Interesting. Do you suggest that evil in the name of Madoff was mental illness? Or what about Ken Lay? Was he just in need of a little medication?

Apparently this poor fella who capped those reporters wasn't malevolent at all. He just needed some hug therapy?

I'd suggest you take a look at what the professionals see. Ted Bundy just needed a support group?

2-5 percent of the population is sociopathic. They lack empathy or compassion for anybody. Give that person therapy? They use it to learn more about how to be better manipulator.

Antisocial personality disorder is indeed a mental illness, recognized as such by the medical profession.

IIRC, personality disorders are Axis II diagnoses and are not treatable. Only Axis I diagnoses are treatable mental illness.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[SkyDekker 1,121]

Quote

All this talk about making mental health services available. You can't make people use them.

Exactly, no need for any healthcare, not like you can force people to use it. So what's the point?